Sanders Refuses to Address Latin American Socialist Failures on Univision

originally posted by: Cabin

These are two extremely different ideologies besides the fact that both contain the word "socialist".

What "extreme" differences are there?

originally posted by: Sremmos80

Why don't you look at countries where it does work?

There isn't one. The Scandinavian systems you guys like to parade around on the catwalk are all failing, and would never have existed in the first place without the prosperity and means of defense afforded by NATO and the economic climate it created.

Norway is going under. Sweden is next. Which one do you want to talk about? We'll go from there.

Which is more than what Bernie did.

a reply to: NthOther

It looks like the interview ended about there. Maybe he wanted to talk about things that affect Latino voters instead?

originally posted by: Kali74

It looks like the interview ended about there. Maybe he wanted to talk about things that affect Latino voters instead?

The economic climate of Latin America doesn't affect Latino voters? It doesn't affect immigration policy? It doesn't affect national security?

These things aren't Latino issues?

originally posted by: NthOther

originally posted by: Sremmos80

Why don't you look at countries where it does work?

There isn't one. The Scandinavian systems you guys like to parade around on the catwalk are all failing, and would never have existed in the first place without the prosperity and means of defense afforded by NATO and the economic climate it created.

Norway is going under. Sweden is next. Which one do you want to talk about? We'll go from there.

Which is more than what Bernie did.

I am currently very interested in this subject but not sure where to start in verifying your claims, considering my general ignorance on these nations and their systems.

Can you explain, or link to something that does, how countries like Norway and Sweden are beginning to fail?

I understand and appreciate your point about NATO handling most of the military/defense needs of the nations. Some more info on how their economies are failing internally would be very much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Bernie Sanders secured another crushing endorsement...

originally posted by: atomish

Can you explain, or link to something that does, how countries like Norway and Sweden are beginning to fail?

Just something to get your wheels turning:

Debunking the Myth of Socialist "Success" in Scandinavia

Socialism has actually crippled what was once a global economic powerhouse.

a reply to: NthOther

Yes but there's also a lot of American issues because they're yanno... American.

originally posted by: NthOther

originally posted by: atomish

Can you explain, or link to something that does, how countries like Norway and Sweden are beginning to fail?

Just something to get your wheels turning:

Debunking the Myth of Socialist "Success" in Scandinavia

Socialism has actually crippled what was once a global economic powerhouse.

Many thanks for the resource!

Unfortunately, since the article also serves as a plug for the book, a lot of what I'd assume is the more enticing data is left unmentioned. Understandably so, the book wouldn't sell so well if they gave up all the goods.

But this certainly serves as a great jumping off point for me with which I can start my research. I usually start by fact-checking things like this anyway and the article does a great job explaining the author's general position so there is much to look into.

Looking forward to any rebuttals other members more versed know such things may offer to the source as I have no frame of reference with which to contend from.

Again, thanks! This gives me much food for thought.

a reply to: Kali74

It was on Univision.

What do you think they should be talking about?

a reply to: atomish

Yeah, I knew you'd have a problem with the source. I can see you fishing from a mile away.

a reply to: NthOther

Because Bernie wants to bring the Venezuela model right here to the US and of course he's been preaching on and on about how he is gonna nationalize our oil production and make that Americas number 1 trade export, totally relying on it.

Venezuela failed under both a capitalist and socialist system but of course conservatives only focus on the latter because it suits their views but in any case is applies to oranges. Why don't conservatives focus on nations like Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway and Finland. Oh right, political agendas.

Because Socialism has failed. Even the DNC faithful in the Party are like "Whoa...uhhh...this guy is talking some crazy stuff"

Let's tally the facts.

He never had a real job until his 40s. He chaired and led the "Jesse Jackson for President" campaign. He was a diehard Socialist most of his life, until he ran across the more improved and CAPITALIST mode of Production/Marxist derived mix, called "Democratic Socialism"...which was touted by 1930s Philosopher Eduard Bernstein.

He admired/admires Castro. Had praise for Chavez and Chavistas. Wants free education and healthcare for all citizens, but doesn't REMIND his voters that he wants to make ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS legal through executive action, which will bring tens on Millions new CITIZENS overnight to dip into that resource pool.

And he's going to walk back now. He thinks as long as he says "The 1%" and "Wall Street Wall Street Wall Street", that is enough to make this career politician look like an 'outsider'.

LULZ

Bernie, your philosophy is public knowledge. The Genie is out of the bottle Bud.

just because you don't like it doesn't mean its bull#

lol

originally posted by: NthOther
a reply to: atomish

Yeah, I knew you'd have a problem with the source. I can see you fishing from a mile away.

Fishing? Really? Did you even read my post?

I thanked you AND complimented the author on making his general position clear DESPITE it being a massive book plug, which is impressive, actually. Wow...

Maybe some of that partisan BS has gotten in your eyes?

I'm still going to use your source for my research but just another name added to my list of nerds on ATS to ignore in the future.

a reply to: atomish

Well I'm sorry.

It's cherry picking season!

The only way to defend the absolute failure that is socialism is to cherry pick information that it actually promotes economic growth and financial security. Point out social programs already established in America like the military and police but ignore other failed social programs like welfare and social security. Yes America has socialist programs. But I challenge all of you promoting this socialist ideology to point out one such program that actually does what it promises and operates within it's budget.

Both sides of the aisle cherry pick information to suit there narrative. But the danger of the left promoting such a socialist shift means more corrupt government, less freedoms and more regulation. Followed the inevitable decline into what we now see in South America(accept in capitalist Chile). The only thing that stands in the way of peoples financial and economic freedoms is the government. There is no corporate entities taking your money and freedoms at gunpoint if necessary, that would be the government.The Scandinavian's are reversing the majority of their 1990's social programs and focusing more on individuals and capitalism again. Tired of hearing that "But the Swedish are socialist" argument. Give them 10 years probably less with recent events and they will be mainly capitalist again.

The private sector will out perform the government sector every day of the week. This has been proven time and time again. Take SpaceX vs NASA for example. Elon Musk and SpaceX just showed the world they can make a more efficient reusable rocket cheaper than NASA. This is an excellent example of the private sector(capitalism) out performing the government sector(socialism) on every level. The same goes for education, healthcare, welfare, the police, the fire department, the military, etc, etc, etc. The people paying for these programs will run and operate it far more efficient than a bunch of bureaucrats.

This isn't just the communists and socialists pushing for this. It's the majority of the left!
Much like it's the majority of the right pushing for crone capitalism. Capitalism isn't perfect by any means. But the human death tolls associated with socialism and communism are astronomically higher. I always laugh whenever I see some ill informed person with a "capitalism kills" sign, sticker, button, etc.

Eta: The reason Bernie stated he's focused on his campaign is because he stands for something different than Venezuela.

That's BS! He won't talk about it because he knows just like Karl Marx did that when you start any socialist shift the ultimate outcome is communism. The government turns into a power hungry addict and seeks to own and control every aspect of our lives. Sorry for the long post, but this promoting socialism crap has got to stop.

originally posted by: JAY1980

Thanks for the insightful post!

You are speaking to many of my fears about socialism and why I am currently investigating it and it's history so fervently. I DO honestly see the perfect system in the end being some hybridized form of systems but I am concerned about moving in the direction of Socialism until these concerns are met (perhaps they are, I am still researching but giving you the benefit of the doubt) and definitely until government is reigned in, the market is freed from cronyism and we as an electorate get a better handle on how to GOVERN OURSELVES AGAIN!

Like I said earlier, I see our government as wholly inept and incapable of running effective social programs. You highlight this well in your post and this mirrors my concern.

Additionally, I am interested in socialists natural bent towards communism. I found some... pamphlets... left behind by a local socialist group, The Freedom Road Socialist Organization, at my local bar. They forgot a couple tucked away between booths after their meeting before opening.

(The pamphlets are a Unity Statement for the organization and a pamphlet on how to employ the Mass Line. If anyone is even interested in this, I will start a thread with pictures and links as well, if they are allowed. I've found a portion of this stuff on their website. Most seems unique to these pamphlets, from what I can see.)

Some of the stuff I've read in this documentation is... disturbing. And the recommended reading of the Mass Line pamphlet lots writings from the following:

Mao Zedong
Lenin
J.V. Stalin
Bill Hinton

I know some of these names and they are not good people. Are these the heroes of the local socialist movements? I surely hope not. I hope the stuff I'm reading in these pamphlets is not taken to heart completely and these people can still think for themselves.

Regardless, it's now a personal mission of mine to educate myself on socialism, both the positives and the negatives, because the fear I have of it is irrational, I don't know squat! If I'm going to fear something, I'm going to at least make sure it's the big scary monster I've always been told it is first.

I still don't know where I stand and I firmly believe that there are degrees and levels to all things. But we can definitely go too far in either extreme, very easily.

Thanks again for your post! Mucho appreciado.

a reply to: NthOther

I don't think people give Bernie enough credit. He's smart enough to know that you can't defend socialism/communism adequately and still look intelligent, so he avoids it altogether. It's a smart move.

a reply to: Pyrrho

I dunno. It's almost like he expected everyone to be as gullible as the millennials with the whole "socialist" mantra, and so ran with it. Then when he realized thinking people weren't falling for it, he's like "Wha? Socialism? Psh. I'm talking about America here."

I bet he wishes he could get off that train about now.