Can idealists be reasoned with?

I'm reading comments on the following story on multiple websites:

Sanders leaves door open to being Clinton's VP

Sanders' supporters are calling him a "sellout" because he may take Clintons' VP nomination if it's offered.

That's a perfect example to me of how idealists are so often completely out of touch with reality. Who among the naysayers described above are considering that Sanders is 74 years old? This is his last chance to do anything truly noteworthy.

As vice president he would have a lot more influence than he does as a senator.

His idealistic followers just can't be pragmatic. It irritates me because the world is not perfect especially in high-level politics. There's no black and white there, it's all grey.

I suppose it takes a realist to understand that and it seems to be over the head of idealists.

That's why I believe idealists can't be reasoned with. Pragmatism is beyond them, generally speaking. They want perfection or nothing and the world rarely works like that.

a reply to: Profusion

For me personally I don't care what he does. My sense of realism is that politicians cannot be trusted, period.

They are liars and manipulators. They are greedy and self serving, regardless of what they say it is obvious the people work for them when it should be the other way around. And they work for themselves and personal gain.

As George Carlin said: There is always a war on terror, or a war on drugs, or a war on crime. Never a war on homelessness though is there. You know why? Because there's no money in it for the politicians. If a politician could pocket a few million from it you'd soon see these streets cleaned up pretty #ing fast let me tell you that.

a reply to: Profusion

Dp

Wouldn't be good for the American people to have an experienced politician and opposite-Trump-view activist such as Bernie Sanders as VP to bring to light to the President how things may be achieved differently, with compassion and foresight?

It depends how good a negotiator you are.

It's very hard though. Their spirit and drive is often based on the subject of their idealism so it is hard to get them to a neutral ground. Most of us are idealistic about one thing or another.

The hardest idealists I have ever faced are economic/social idealists.

Free market Austrian School capitalists and socialists are very hard to get to come down to reality.

I am an idealistic person.
And I see myself as being very easy to reason with in most cases.

But keep in mind one of my ideals is Sensibility.
Also I seek Diplomacy and strive towards Compassion and Consideration.

It's never easy and you can't win them all, but you can always work diligently towards something better.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
I am an idealistic person.
And I see myself as being very easy to reason with in most cases.

But keep in mind one of my ideals is Sensibility.
Also I seek Diplomacy and strive towards Compassion and Consideration.

It's never easy and you can't win them all, but you can always work diligently towards something better.

Self awareness certainly controls things like idealism and pessimism.

a reply to: Profusion

I agree! It is the mentality of:

"I am hungry for a steak, but if they are out of steak I would rather starve to death than have something else."
"My way or the highway! No middle ground."
"If I lose I am taking my ball and going home."

I am noticing that in society lately there is VERY little 'give and take', cooperation, negotiation. Sad, because you can't please all the people all the time. People are unwilling or unable to say 'my team lost but it was a great game'.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Wouldn't it be good for the American people to have an experienced politician and opposite-Trump-view activist such as Bernie Sanders as VP to bring to light to the President how things may be achieved differently, with compassion and foresight?

originally posted by: InTheLight
Wouldn't be good for the American people to have an experienced politician and opposite-Trump-view activist such as Bernie Sanders as VP to bring to light to the President how things may be achieved differently, with compassion and foresight?

Personally, I think a trump / sanders ticket would make more sense and they would balance each other. Two anti-corrupt-establisment candidates have that in common. They could compromise on the finer issues as long as Trump is willing to in a way share power and seriously listen to sanders ideas. It's all in the interest of negotiating a better future and certainly Trump knows about negotiating.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: InTheLight
Wouldn't be good for the American people to have an experienced politician and opposite-Trump-view activist such as Bernie Sanders as VP to bring to light to the President how things may be achieved differently, with compassion and foresight?

Personally, I think a trump / sanders ticket would make more sense and they would balance each other. Two anti-corrupt-establisment candidates have that in common. They could compromise on the finer issues as long as Trump is willing to in a way share power and seriously listen to sanders ideas. It's all in the interest of negotiating a better future and certainly Trump knows about negotiating.

Cheers - Dave

I think part of the problem is that many of Sanders supporters are still in college and don't have a lot of practical experience to temper their expectations. They are still in an environment that sort of coddles and caters to them much like home life does.

a reply to: Profusion

That's a perfect example to me of how idealists are so often completely out of touch with reality.

Did you think that way going in or do you judge on a case by case basis? "Ideals" are highly subjective and I'm sure any idealist would frown upon being lumped in with the rest under the banner of "idealists."

I suppose it takes a realist to understand that and it seems to be over the head of idealists.

This thread is insulting. What can be practical for some may not be for others. How does liberal idealism work for example?

Nothing worse than a delusional realist...

a reply to: eisegesis

Well said. A "realist" is harder to convince than an "idealist".

Atleast an idealist is more open minded about alternative truths.

Idealists are the topplers of tyrants. Realists are the ones running their baths.

a reply to: eisegesis

Dp

a reply to: eisegesis

Well there is idealism and there is practicality. It isn't wrong to be idealistic, but you need to know when you should temper your expectations. Many of the young Sanders supporters don't have as much experience to help temper their idealism. We are often at our most idealistic when young.

The trick is to find the balance between your ideals and being pragmatic.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well there is idealism and there is practicality. It isn't wrong to be idealistic, but you need to know when you should temper your expectations.

I absolutely agree. Practicality can be applied to both "labels" mentioned in the OP, which only blurs the line between the two.

Many of the young Sanders supporters don't have as much experience to help temper their idealism.

That is a fair assessment, but are you saying that as a realist or idealistically?

If only the wise and practical could teach our institutionally trained youth to walk the line and know when to double down on their ideals. The best form of idealism is born from "practical" forfeiture of realism, something our youth are professionals at, lol.

originally posted by: eisegesis
a reply to: ketsuko

Well there is idealism and there is practicality. It isn't wrong to be idealistic, but you need to know when you should temper your expectations.

I absolutely agree. Practicality can be applied to both "labels" mentioned in the OP, which only blurs the lines between the two.

Many of the young Sanders supporters don't have as much experience to help temper their idealism.

That is a fair assessment, but are you saying that as a realist or idealistically?

If only the wise and practical could teach our institutionally trained youth to walk the line and know when to double down on their ideals. The best form of idealism is born from "practical" forfeiture of realism, something our youth are professionals at, lol.

Idealism in terms of philosophy is different than the common ussage to describe a person who's idealism is beyound a practical norm.

Nothing wrong with idealism. It's justsometimes the you end up in a situation where perfection is impossible and good enough has been passed by.

I make guitars which is idealistic in its own. But I know most of my money will come through repairs and set ups so I don't have a huge CNC machine that costs 100k. I also design my guitars to be made fairly quickly. The end result I make more than 50 cents an hour. If I was an idealist I could either make it big (small chance) or fail and go into debt (large chance) thinking I will tool up and compete with fender and Gibson right away.

It just wise to have enough self awareness to understand your own reality, possibilities, and limitations.

a reply to: Profusion

There are so many schools of thought and so many different types of people that process data differently .I guess it boils down to how you present the reasoning .A lot of times I just don't get it .I can look at it many many times over and I just can't see something . Then someone will explain it to me in a completely different way and Ba- Bam I get it .The other people tried and tried and were correct because at the end of the day I got it .

Parent are usually aware that hey have to deal with the kids individually and appeal to them in away unlike their other siblings .Its hard when you are dealing on a forum because you have a mixed bag ...but it would seem possible to me .

a reply to: Profusion

Sanders has already done what he needed to do and that was shake up the Democratic party. Trump has done the same for the Republicans. After 2016 politics will be fundamentally changed because of these two men.

Sanders is 74 years old and in my opinion should retire without selling out. His legend will be bigger than his career ever was.