Is this the end of the "special relationship" ?

a reply to: grainofsand

Absolute fail? Oh dear, i suggest you read the Treaties in question. Controlling the borders means you have full control over who enters or not. Under the terms of those Treaties, we do not fully control who comes in, ergo factually correct.

I suggest in your reading you pay particular attention to the 1967 ammendment. And then possibly bone up a bit on International Law.

However, i will concede that leaving the EU would give us MORE say over our borders.

To be honest though, it is all irrelevent as the Remain camp are moving ahead now whilst the Leave camp is quietly imploding. Which is really no suprise as they can not back up their claims and have a loose cannon in Boris (and Farage).

Ideally, i would like a reformed Europe but that may not happen. If not though, our future is better together than apart. However, if the Far Right win in Austria and that trend further spreads, we may start to see the reform that is needed within the EU - it is finally starting to sink in in Brussells how removed they are from the general European population.

a reply to: Flavian

Nope, leaving the EU will give us the same legal control over our borders as pretty much every sovereign nation in the world which is not in the European Union.

Raising the UN convention for refugees was an irrelevant red herring and you know that. It is why I called you out.

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
From my own experience, Britain, while technically a European country, really is a very different bird from the rest of Europe for a number of reasons. There is a definite, noticeable transition when crossing the Channel.

Well, I never experienced any of that. Sure enough, given the former isolation of many nations you can still see differences in architecture and landscape. For example, whenever I travel through Belgium, I'm always pleased to see the 1950's style traffic signs there. Or the houses with one blind wall. Belgium has that old, used, almost broken down atmosphere. And when you enter France, suddenly everything gets modern and flashy again.

Whereas, say, when traveling from one European country to another, beyond possibly a different language spoken, transitions across borders were less noticeable.

Nonsense, really. I have crossed the Dutch/German border a kazillion times, and each time you immediately see (and "feel") that you aren't in The Netherlands anymore: different road signs, different ways of building roads, different gas stations, different food, different buildings in general, different names on the signs etc. etc. - at least as different from my country as the UK was.

A good example showcasing the myriad of reasons why the EU is a dysfunctional joke: The Common Fisheries Policy. Economically and environmentally a complete disaster, in my opinion.

Apart from the question if that policy is a joke - I never studied it - similar "jokes" can be found in the UK too. From the horses mouth... So, in all cases, brexit or not, you need to continue battling ignorance and corruption.

Then of course, there is corruption and apathy in Brussels, and the lack of oversight in finances. The lack of enforcement amongst EU members who violate treaties and binding provisions. Countries that pick and choose what they follow.

.. like the UK? I believe it's one of the members that has chosen to ignore many agreements we made in the EU. Euro? No. Drive on proper side of road? No. Free border crossing for EU citizens? No.

I think it was a mistake when you broke off from the Old Commonwealth, though others disagree. A few of those old commonwealth partners, such as India, is where the future seems to be.

Trading with India is very expensive, due to the long distances. Also, though the Brits have been there for a long time, the cultural differences between India and the UK are WAY bigger than these between say Germany and the UK. Actually, as I pointed out before, the Germans and the Brits share a common bloodline and that's much stronger than the bonde between India and the UK.

I'm all in favour of battling corruption. And as I wrote before, I'm not a "Big Fan" of the current EU either, but given a choice, I'd stay in. Too many advantages.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Could have fooled you? When did I ever say anything nasty about people from Europe?

If anything, I'm a bit of a Francophile. Their food is among my favourite to cook and eat, Champagne is a real treat that I look forward to immensely, I love their cinema and Audrey Fleurot is so bad for my blood pressure it's not even funny.

I also love Italian food, Valentino Rossi, German sausages and beer, Richard Wagner and J S Bach, Belgium beer, Rossini, Verdi, Picasso, Mondrian and a ton of others.
I've never met anyone from Europe that I fell out with, even at footy matches.

People need to realise it's the institution not the people that us Brits don't want anything to do with.

a reply to: grainofsand

It is no red herring. You stated it would give us full control of our borders - i pointed out it wouldn't. You asked for proof - i provided it. If you actually study the Treaties you will see why. The Treaties do not just cover refugees but also migrants. Not to mention various other trade deals that include freedom of movement (even if for restricted periods of time).

So, would have have greater control of our borders? Yes.

Would we have full control of our borders? No.

This may seem irrelevent to you but it quite clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding from the Leave camp regarding International Law and International Treaties - something that Obama made painfully obvious last week.

For the record, i will state again that the EU is far from perfect and has some, frankly, useless departments and directives. But being part of the club is always preferable to watching from the sidelines - particularly when decisions that club make can affect our well being without us having any say in those decisions.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: grainofsand

It is no red herring. You stated it would give us full control of our borders - i pointed out it wouldn't. You asked for proof - i provided it. If you actually study the Treaties you will see why. The Treaties do not just cover refugees but also migrants. Not to mention various other trade deals that include freedom of movement (even if for restricted periods of time).

So, would have have greater control of our borders? Yes.

Would we have full control of our borders? No.

This may seem irrelevent to you but it quite clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding from the Leave camp regarding International Law and International Treaties - something that Obama made painfully obvious last week.

For the record, i will state again that the EU is far from perfect and has some, frankly, useless departments and directives. But being part of the club is always preferable to watching from the sidelines - particularly when decisions that club make can affect our well being without us having any say in those decisions.

A better question might be "Outside the EU would we have to allow upwards of a quarter of a million EU citizens to settle here each and every year?"
The answer is categorically no.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Star for that as i have absolutely no argument there - that question and answer would be 100% correct.

However, you have to bear in mind that there would be consequences for such an action. Unfortunately, we are not America so cannot impose our will on the world. If we simply dump this problem on Europe, you can guarantee that Europe would absolutely hammer us in future negotiations (whether for trade or other areas). From a UK viewpoint i would be annoyed at that but understand it. From a neutral standpoint (rest of world) i would completely understand that and even support such a tough stance (if you won't help us, why should we help you).

Frankly, Europe has been allowed to get completely out of hand. I completely agree with ForteanOrg that the only way to get effective change is to be part of the club that makes those decisions.

a reply to: Flavian

Possibly, though without that 1/4 mill arriving each year, 50 thousand refugees a year would be easily handled wouldn't it?

a reply to: SprocketUK

Honestly? You would think so wouldn't you?

I am not sure though simply because this issue has been on the tables for at least the last 20 years (way before the current migrant crisis). Which suggests that, for some at least, any migration is an issue!

a reply to: Flavian

Well, ever since 97 we have been over the 200 mark so that could explain a bit of it.

I dunno, we'D have to see, but it would be a small minority that would begrudge 50k refugees when 1/4 of a million are no longer coming.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Flavian

Nope, leaving the EU will give us the same legal control over our borders as pretty much every sovereign nation in the world which is not in the European Union.

The EU does not control your borders, that's entirely up to the UK itself. You never signed up to Schengen - every time I visit the UK I have to show them my passport (thought they would know me by know, but no)..

Now, let's see: are you really being "flooded" by EU migrants? In 2014, just 174.000 people from the EU (net) migrated to the UK. On a population of roughly 65 million - that's not even 0.3 (naught point three) percent.. I would hardly call that "a flood", it's more like "a pint"

Also, did you know that on the other hand over 1.4 MILLION Brits live on the continent (migrated there)? Actually, it's more that we, on the continent, are being flooded by Brits, methinks.. should we send them back if you leave the EU? Do you have sufficient employment for 1.4 additional Brits?

And then - what about the 194.000 migrants from outside the EU? Nobody forces you to take in people from outside the EU, but still - you do. Leaving the EU will NOT stop that.

Really, what a strange argument.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Sorry, again you are dissembling to try and put a gloss on things.

The EU citizens in the UK will not be forced to leave post Brexit and neither will the 1.4 million expats living in Europe so it was a pointless statement

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Sorry, again you are dissembling to try and put a gloss on things.

The EU citizens in the UK will not be forced to leave post Brexit and neither will the 1.4 million expats living in Europe so it was a pointless statement

Well, you don't know WHAT might happen. To my chagrin the radical right is winning again (e.g. Austria) and their nationalistic fear-mongering might well result in casting out any non-nationals. "Europe for the Europeans!" - I can hear them now. Also, the position of the Brits on the continent would change: instead of residents of the EU, they would suddenly be "foreigners". And given the fear of foreigners that many brexit Brits seem to have, they surely would understand the continental fear of Brits, right?

You reap what you sow.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Sorry, again you are dissembling to try and put a gloss on things.

The EU citizens in the UK will not be forced to leave post Brexit and neither will the 1.4 million expats living in Europe so it was a pointless statement

Well, you don't know WHAT might happen. To my chagrin the radical right is winning again (e.g. Austria) and their nationalistic fear-mongering might well result in casting out any non-nationals. "Europe for the Europeans!" - I can hear them now. Also, the position of the Brits on the continent would change: instead of residents of the EU, they would suddenly be "foreigners". And given the fear of foreigners that many brexit Brits seem to have, they surely would understand the continental fear of Brits, right?

You reap what you sow.

Maybe it's your lack of knowledge that makes you so blindly pro eu?

The Vienna convention on the law of treaties of 1969 sets out the framework for acquired rights which were translated into vested rights when Greenland withdrew from the eec.

You are welcome, by the way

a reply to: Flavian

My aren't you the semantic one, okay, we will have the same legal control of immigration as any other nation signed up to UN conventions, say Canada, or Australia. Try rocking up in one of those countries expecting to get minimum wage work lol.
You knew exactly what I meant, and yes you have sidetracked with refugees, absolutely ridiculous, this is a thread about potentially leaving the EU and controlling the hundreds of thousands moving here every year.

The UK will have control over immigration in the event of an exit same as every other country outside of the EU.
I'm happy with that.
Your initial statement which provoked our exchange was a blatant attempt to suggest that leaving would make no difference to how immigration is controlled. You know damn well that is untrue, and threw refugees into the discussion solely to muddy the waters of an EU debate.

a reply to: SprocketUK

It's just more ridiculous scaremongering, of course the settled EU nationals will not be kicked out of Britain.
Every employer and business with hard working citizens from EU nations would be the first on the phone to the Business secretary. Nobody is calling for it either, just control on the numbers same as nationals from outside the EU are controlled.

Heck I'd protest, carry out a bit of civil disobedience, even riot if there were ever calls to round up EU nation citizens and kick them out. Everyone I know feels the same, plenty of Europeans in my social circles, even some who are voting leave.
I thought Fortean was better than that...blatant and unashamed scaremongering.

It ain't happening, and he knows it. Lame.

*Edit*
To clarify, my Polish mates are voting leave, but they became British citizens and were 'first wave' immigrants.
Even they say there are too many now they can't get their kids in the local schools after the Romanians and the rest got the right of entry.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: SprocketUK

It's just more ridiculous scaremongering, of course the settled EU nationals will not be kicked out of Britain.
Every employer and business with hard working citizens from EU nations would be the first on the phone to the Business secretary. Nobody is calling for it either, just control on the numbers same as nationals from outside the EU are controlled.

Heck I'd protest, carry out a bit of civil disobedience, even riot if there were ever calls to round up EU nation citizens and kick them out. Everyone I know feels the same, plenty of Europeans in my social circles, even some who are voting leave.
I thought Fortean was better than that...blatant and unashamed scaremongering.

It ain't happening, and he knows it. Lame.

*Edit*
To clarify, my Polish mates are voting leave, but they became British citizens and were 'first wave' immigrants.
Even they say there are too many now they can't get their kids in the local schools after the Romanians and the rest got the right of entry.

But we are all racists, mate.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Maybe it's your lack of knowledge that makes you so blindly pro eu?

Mildly pro-EU at best.

The Vienna convention on the law of treaties of 1969 sets out the framework for acquired rights which were translated into vested rights when Greenland withdrew from the eec.

Ah yes, I see. So do the seven inch mordibutts polish the greenplate tomorrow, then??

Really, what are you saying ...

Now, the VCLT is "merely" a treaty that spells out whom can make treaties, whom can't and how to maintain, amend, dissolve them etc. So, it does NOT set out any framework for acquired rights - it sets out a "framework" for ... making and breaking treaties. Acquired rights and their conversion into vested right might be part of a treaty RULED by the VCLT, that's all.

Also keep in mind that when Greenland withdrew from the EEC, they remained subject to the EU treaties - through association of Overseas Countries and Territories with the EU. And they will probably rejoin the EU, as the benefits outweigh the costs.

You are welcome, by the way

I know.

But tell me, how about them mordibutts?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: SprocketUK
I thought Fortean was better than that...blatant and unashamed scaremongering.

Nasty, innit?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Now, let's see: are you really being "flooded" by EU migrants?

Who used the term flooded? Not me, anywhere in this thread or elsewhere.
Way to use a disappointing and child-like tactic of implying I used such inflammatory words in my debate.
I shall disregard the rest of your comments for that, in fact I haven't read them, I clicked quote immediately as I saw you lamely inserted 'flooded' into your reply.
Lame again.