The perfect heaven

a reply to: ClovenSky

A true god could do what you say but unfortunately there is no true god.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: ChesterJohn

So since God is perfect, we really don't have anything to worry about? God will find a way to save every single one of us regardless of our actions in this life?

There is the doctrine of total universal reconciliation.

en.wikipedia.org...

A chunk of the more earlier beliefs never had a Paradise, like most of Sumerian/Babylonian beliefs, and if they did, it was usually for their gods. Judaism from what I understand never focused on life after death, where Sheoul sounds like a long picket line that never ends.

Why would we make the choice to leave a perfect world where their is no pain, an misery only to go through the trauma of birth and forgetting the vast treasures of the Heavens.

Maybe the danger far greater then we could ever know really, and that the moments of life an death are where the real mysteries lie.

originally posted by: ClovenSky

We start our life innocent with no knowledge, no memories, no direction. We are expected to find out the holy word on our own and follow these tenants to the letter. If we don't .... fire, brimstone, pain, endless torture, no chance of redemption .... HELL.

So we are sitting in paradise and decide to take the plunge. We are born into the wrong situation and then become damned for eternity.

Who would ever take that chance? Are we simply the souls too stupid to know any better? Are the smart souls still sitting in heaven?

To enter heaven one must become as a little child....... so being without knowledge is paradise. Eating from the tree of knowledge.... one cannot eat from the tree of life.
Did you choose to become full of knowledge?

But what do you know? Thought tells you about many things and the things are believed.......
But things and beliefs conflict..... conflicting is not peace, not paradise.

This right here and right now is paradise...... but knowledge
(thought) speaks of other times and places and people and other worldly things...... and will also tell you what is wrong or right, good or bad about you.

Whats wrong (or right) with right now if thought is not believed?

a reply to: ClovenSky
The belief that you are free to choose is what makes paradise feel like hell.
Can you even choose the next thought?
Can you choose to be happy? If you could then you would not be seeking paradise or heaven.

a reply to: ClovenSky

a reply to: ClovenSky

[...]

We are then given this opportunity to take a plunge and be born innocent into this world. If we accept this opportunity, our memories are wiped clean and our souls enter into this physical/material reality. Now there are some discrepancies on how we enter into this reality but the consensus states that it is free will, we decide ourselves to take the journey.

Why? Why would we ever make that choice? Why would we trade paradise for a brief existence in this world? Especially one with such a high risk vs reward payout.

It's more complicated and darker than that - first, the opportunity wasn't given, it was the only choice for the beings back then, long long time ago, it was a punishment. Second, people (every soul) on this earth, young and old, born and unborn, are *not* innocent. The beings on this planet and other physical universes are all angels from long ago and these souls are guilty of a big sin against God, the sacrilege of turning against the Holy God, a rebellion if you will, that happened long long long time ago, related to the luciferian rebellion or other rebellions long before that.

The consensus that it is free will bringing us here, could be wrong. Free will in paradise is valid until sin shows up, the big sin of turning against God and His things, then He decides to punish these angels by sending them into physical universes or worse.
Similar to the situation here, one is free until he/she breaks the law, then the enforcer sends him/her to some other confined area. Free will continues to function here as well, but under different compulsory circumstances, the laws and rules of the physical universe.

Also remember that these rebellions are not short in time, they take quite some time. God gives plenty of time to the beings to repent and return to Him. If that doesn't work then He expels them to another essentially different and rougher universe.

So just to have an idea, picture some angels saying such things as "Here is a boring life, no challenges" or "we don't need God anymore, we want another leader" or "why are the rules like this and not different" and many many more sacrilegious things. And the Almighty gets very angry and decides to expel them and send them to these physical universes, in human physical bodies now that grow old and die.

Now, how does Hell fit into this I'm not sure, but in general, the more the being slips into sin and embraces evil, the lower in the scale of universes and spirituality he/she goes. The more a being hates God the more He punishes that being. During this process certain negative psychological changes happened to these beings, a devolution if you will. A sad and terrifying story indeed.

This is a pretty rough approximation of what happened and I don't know all the bits and pieces, but whatever I said, you can take it to the bank. That's why God is angry with people and that's why the beings have such a hard time re-connecting with Him and why He doesn't answer promptly their prayers. And this rebellion is the "Original Sin" and not some fairy-tale about Adam and Eve's sin.

All that said, even though God is an angry God, He is always welcoming and wonderful to the beings that repent and say sincerely "I'm sorry". It takes time for the being to be accepted but at least the journey toward God has started.

We start our life innocent with no knowledge, no memories, no direction. We are expected to find out the holy word on our own and follow these tenants to the letter. If we don't .... fire, brimstone, pain, endless torture, no chance of redemption .... HELL.

There is knowledge, but it's more on an unconscious hidden level. There are memories, but they are locked. I personally remember a few bits and pieces from my previous life in a different universe, but generally my past memories are locked as well. I hope in due time I'd have them back.

People always get help to learn the holy word from people here or from God above. You've probably have heard of people here, on this earth, communicating with God. He guides and helps them - if there's a will there's a way.

God is very tolerant as well, you don't have to follow all the rules to the T immediately, it takes time and God understands that, He simply waits and pushes the person to become better every day. Case in point, I love good food and God always pushes me to be moderate in my food consumption, but I know it's very hard for me and He tolerates me. Surely His patience has an end, so I try to do my best.

So we are sitting in paradise and decide to take the plunge. We are born into the wrong situation and then become damned for eternity.

No one is born by chance into the wrong situation, every living thing is where God has decided it to be and it is my strong belief that no soul is damned for eternity, just a long time at that.

Who would ever take that chance? Are we simply the souls too stupid to know any better? Are the smart souls still sitting in heaven?

Just souls stupid enough that long long time ago turned against God and were sent here, whereas the smart souls listened and respected to the end God and His rules.

The rebellions stories mentioned here are a very sad and painful thing. I'm told that there are other more awful universes and horrible states of existences for these beings, but don't know much about it. Please regard God's name always as Holy and His laws to be respected.

a reply to: ClovenSky

In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew neʹphesh and the Greek psy·kheʹ. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings.

So no, we do not posses a soul, we are souls. And we are mortal (souls). According to the way the Bible uses the word "soul" that is. Many religions do indeed teach otherwise, including those in Christendom. What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?

“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.

“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.

“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.

“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought.

In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

That which is perishable, mortal earthly creatures of “flesh and blood”, cannot enter the spirit realm called heaven. 1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from neʹphesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)

Neʹphesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense neʹphesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”

More details can be found in my commentary in this thread (in particular where in the Bible you can see how the Hebrew and Greek words for “soul” are used):

One myth leads to another, page 3

The teaching that “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body, or as the Babylonian theologians put it, “Death was a passage to another kind of life” (see full quotation earlier), is connected to a very old lie (false story/myth)...

Genesis 3:4 (NW):

At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die."

Ecclesiastes 1:9:

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

And there is nothing new about this idea of an immaterial soul surviving the death of the physical body either. Or death being a passage to another kind of life, implying the contradiction that death isn't really death. Sort of like the way some people treat the word "nothing". But more importantly involving the teaching that when you die, the real 'you' doesn't actually die but keeps on living in another form. Which negates the need for a resurrection of the dead as taught in the Scriptures.