'Selling' Children Is a Radical Form of Religion

Three years ago, 12-year-old Fatima was "sold" into marriage to a man more than four times her age. Her father, unemployed and addicted to drugs, sold her into wedlock for about $10,500, money that he then used to buy himself a car. You might be asking yourself how this possible. The answer – because there is no minimum age of marriage law in Saudi Arabia.

But Fatima didn’t give up. With the help of Equality Now, her uncle and our Saudi partners, Fatima beat the odds earlier this year to secure something many thought was impossible given the cultural norms she was pushing up against – a divorce. And with new regulations being considered that would effectively set a minimum age for marriage of 16, Saudi Arabia may finally be taking the steps necessary to ensure that children like Fatima are spared a similar ordeal.
Will Saudi Arabia end child marriage?

"Selling" children is legal all over the Islamic world:

A 13-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal injuries four days after a family-arranged marriage to a man almost twice her age, a human rights group said.

...

The Yemeni rights group said the girl was married off in an agreement between two men to marry each other's sisters to avoid having to pay expensive bride-prices.
Child bride, 13, dies of internal injuries four days after arranged marriage in Yemen

How do people make the mental distinction between "radical Islam" (ISIS) and the institutionalized Islamic practice of "selling" children?

As long as the latter is considered to be a non-radical form of religion, under what grounds could you ever have a radical form of religion? Do we draw the line at murder? I'm sorry, what?

And, don't tell me that the practice is becoming less common, that's a lie.

Child marriage in Turkey has been a longstanding problem, but reliable statistics around the issue are scarce. Research conducted by the United Nations Population Fund in 2013 indicated 28 per cent of marriage in Turkey involved girls aged under 18.

The situation has not been helped by the current political and economic climate.

A huge influx of refugees – often women and children – from Syria and Iraq is thought to have pushed numbers up.

Parents are faced with the decision to either marry their daughters to strangers or attempt to protect them from the volatile conditions in refugee camps.
More than 180,000 child brides in Turkey, lawyer claims

Oh, spew. Some countries call it dowry, wedding gifts, the expectation of whom is to marry whom, what class, status, age group, etc.

Try going against the culture or parents wishes is frowned upon in a lot of countries, not just the Muslim world. Some of the biggest traditions surround weddings, everywhere you look.

Preferring elopement…

Oh, and child abuse is everywhere, too.

a reply to: Profusion
Unfortunately, this problem goes far beyond Islam and the Middle East. This has been a nightmare for females in India, and other places, for a very long time. Women are valued less in these cultures, and seem to rank about the same as property and animals. It's a disgusting, embarrassing, and incredible statement on any so-called "civilization". The religions in these areas allow it, and even encourage it, so what can be done? People aren't going to give up their delusions.

How do people make the mental distinction between "radical Islam" (ISIS) and the institutionalized Islamic practice of "selling" children?

As long as the latter is considered to be a non-radical form of religion, under what grounds could you ever have a radical form of religion? Do we draw the line at murder? I'm sorry, what?

You might be interested in what Sam Harris has to say along the lines of what you're addressing...

We must defend their right to do this. Didn't you know cultural diversity is a good thing. Defend all the cultures no matter how bad they are, yay DIVERSITY!!!!

originally posted by: Puppylove
We must defend their right to do this. Didn't you know cultural diversity is a good thing. Defend all the cultures no matter how bad they are, yay DIVERSITY!!!!

yay STRAWMAN argument!!!!

a reply to: AudioOne

Care to reply with more than a one comment accusation?

Seriously, I'm so sick of every culture's most depraved acts being given a pass simply because of cultural diversity. What's the point of these multinational organizations if they don't even do anything to defend people's basic rights? It's sick the stuff we modern civilized nations allow to continue to happen, simply because of "cultural diversity" it's bull#.

By the way, I include my own "culture" in that, we need to bring our corrupt politicians to task for what they do, and the corporations that take advantage of these cultures to abuse people for profit.

No culture should be given a pass for these things.

originally posted by: AudioOne

originally posted by: Puppylove
We must defend their right to do this. Didn't you know cultural diversity is a good thing. Defend all the cultures no matter how bad they are, yay DIVERSITY!!!!

yay STRAWMAN argument!!!!

I'm not so sure that's such a straw man. There ARE people out there who say the kind of things PuppyLove just posted. And they stand by it, daring anyone to demonize xyz culture, no matter how barbaric some of its practices are.

a reply to: Klassified

I;m always hearing from conservatives how academic liberals are all defending barbaric practices in the name of diversity, yet I studied at a University and researched these subjects and found many harsh criticisms about such practices. The actual scholarly books and papers very much critique all these things yet manage to also believe in the importance of diversity as long as it does not impinge on the universal human rights of individuals (including the right to not get married off period.)

So yes, strawman arguments. I read the books and the papers, not one of which I ever hear cited in these arguments, I'm pretty sure not a one of you have spent an evening making a thorough search of academic peer reviewed journals or books on the subject matter at a university library. Yet you all seem to know what is accepted in terms of diversity, usually based on the views of politicians and a few nut cases, and not based on the actual specific detailed academic work that constitutes what the real view point is.

a reply to: AudioOne

I'm far from conservative, my criticism is that, the comment is "Oh these things are horrible, but don't you dare do anything about it, it's not OUR culture. Let them deal with themselves."

I disagree with this fundamentally, humanity needs to fight to improve our quality of life both at home and abroad. We excuse too much, or find excuses not to do anything about it. I don't care about papers from people who's opinion is that it's a terrible, bad, and horrible thing, but nothing should be done about it because it's not our business.

Of course it's our business, the state of the world is the business of every person on this planet.

a reply to: AudioOne
You're making an assumptive error in defending your statement by trying to sound so much wiser, and more edumakated than us ignorant, back wood folk still using out houses. We aren't talking about those who understand the difference between supporting diversity and barbarism. We're speaking of the many talking heads and apologists who have no such balance or understanding of what it is they're supporting when they scream diversity.

Never underestimate the level of education of the members here. You have no idea who you might be talking to on the other end, and just how educated they really are. Phd's frequent this site, but they often won't tell you that, because they aren't looking to sound smarter than everyone else.

a reply to: Klassified

I am of the opinion that scholars are the most ignorant and arrogant people around

Socially impaired

As for the op, it see,s he has labeled all religions, it seems it's about Hindus and Muslims

Great work

Women are owned in the United States. There are actual laws with language like menstrual cycle and penning down dates and the insertion of instruments and the threat of jail. Who are you to talk?

Scholars don't make the laws.

Selling your children is the alternative given by the fetus protection crowd. Either to the state or, if child is fortunate, adopted. Who are you to judge?

a reply to: MOMof3

Let me get this straight, you think that a child growing up in a foster home, given an education, and going on to being an adult who can make their own decisions is comparable to being sold to some old man and systematically raped against her will time and time again and made to serve him and bear his children, who if girls you will watch be made to do the same as she has before her and if boys will do the same to some girl or girls as has been done to her?

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: AudioOne
You're making an assumptive error in defending your statement by trying to sound so much wiser, and more edumakated than us ignorant, back wood folk still using out houses. We aren't talking about those who understand the difference between supporting diversity and barbarism. We're speaking of the many talking heads and apologists who have no such balance or understanding of what it is they're supporting when they scream diversity.

Never underestimate the level of education of the members here. You have no idea who you might be talking to on the other end, and just how educated they really are. Phd's frequent this site, but they often won't tell you that, because they aren't looking to sound smarter than everyone else.

I'm not underestimating sh@@. I see crass generalizations about screaming diversity, accepting barbaric practices, and stating that academics do nothing more than put their hands up in the air and say it's not our problem. Every single statement shows that you don't know what is actually going. Many of these so called academics are actually natives in countries that have these issues, for instance India or Egypt, and are fighting on the ground in organizations and education to try to remedy these issues. They are in their communities fighting the good fight. Not sitting by desks just grading papers. They actually live there. Secondly, making crass generalizations that things like inequality in hiring or the right for Muslim women to wear head scarfs in the name of diversity is the same thing as condoning child marriage or brutality toward women is a straw man argument. You sure provided a lot of huffing and puffing on your intelligence without providing one snippet of evidence against what I was saying, namely that you are not familiar with the literature that you state somehow supports child abuse in the name of diversity. Many of the scholars who work with these communities are extremely active on the international scene in organizations that try to remedy these issues, working in war torn regions helping to heal broken communities. But again you speak in generalizations and not specifics. Huff and Puff away in uninformed generalizations oh wise one.

You can be Einstein but if you don't know how to fix a sink don't go arguing with a Plumber. I never stated someone was more intelligent or less, but if you haven't studied what academics write or say than don't go arguing about their view point, that's all I said. Seems fair to me.

a reply to: MOMof3

Women are owned in the United States. There are actual laws with language like menstrual cycle and penning down dates and the insertion of instruments and the threat of jail. Who are you to talk?

Reasonable point, if I'm understanding the gist.

Scholars don't make the laws.

Unfortunately, in some countries they do. Including America to some degree in the past. Less so now.

Selling your children is the alternative given by the fetus protection crowd. Either to the state or, if child is fortunate, adopted. Who are you to judge?

You lost me here. Are we reading the same OP? Help me understand your overall point.

originally posted by: AudioOne

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: AudioOne
You're making an assumptive error in defending your statement by trying to sound so much wiser, and more edumakated than us ignorant, back wood folk still using out houses. We aren't talking about those who understand the difference between supporting diversity and barbarism. We're speaking of the many talking heads and apologists who have no such balance or understanding of what it is they're supporting when they scream diversity.

Never underestimate the level of education of the members here. You have no idea who you might be talking to on the other end, and just how educated they really are. Phd's frequent this site, but they often won't tell you that, because they aren't looking to sound smarter than everyone else.

I'm not underestimating sh@@. I see crass generalizations about screaming diversity, accepting barbaric pratices, and stating that academics do nothing more than put their hands up in the air and say it's not our problem. Every single statement shows that you don't know what is actually going. Many of these so called academics are actually natives in countries that have these issues, for instance India or Egypt, and are fighting on the ground in organizations and education to try to remedy these issues. They are our in their communities fighting the good fight. Not sitting by desks just grading papers. They actually live there. Secondly, making crass generalizations that things like inequality in hiring or the right for Muslim women to wear head scarfs in the name of diversity is the same thing as condoning child marriage or brutality toward women is a straw man argument. You sure provided a lot of huffing and puffing on your intelligence without providing one snippet of evidence against what I was saying, namely that you are not familiar with the literature that you state somehow support child abuse in the name of diversity. Many of the scholars who work with these communities are extremely active on the international scene in organizations that try to remedy these issues, working in war torn regions helping to heal broken communities. But again you speak in generalizations and not specifics. Huff and Puff away in uninformed generalizations oh wise one.

You can be Einstein but if you don't know hoe to fix a sink don't go arguing with a Plumber. I never stated someone was more intelligent or less, but if you haven't studied what academics write or say than don't go arguing about there view point, that's all I said. Seems fair to me.

Everything you're saying is great, and I'm aware of those people. But again, it isn't those people who are busting their ass trying to make a difference we're talking about. You made something out of PL's post it was never meant to be, and you put words in her mouth to boot. I understood who she was talking about, and what she meant. Why are you having such a hard time with it? Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

Have it your way. I'm not going to continue defending a statement that didn't need defending to start with.

a reply to: Klassified

Without the choice of an abortion you sell you infant to the state (they pay for everything) or adoption. If adoption were a good choice the foster care system would not be overloaded.

Until women have full and equal rights about their bodies without duress and threats, we are not any better. Letting religion dictate science.

a reply to: Puppylove

That is why they are in the hands of the government til 18 because of their mental and medical problems from being abandoned.

We treat women and children no better because of religion not science.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Klassified

Without the choice of an abortion you sell you infant to the state (they pay for everything) or adoption. If adoption were a good choice the foster care system would not be overloaded.

Until women have full and equal rights about their bodies without duress and threats, we are not any better. Letting religion dictate science.

Thank you! Understood and mostly agreed. However, I respectfully disagree that we are no better. Do you know anyone who has sold their young daughter into marriage in the west? Do you know anyone who has sold their daughter into prostitution in the west? No, because neither would be tolerated in the west for a moment. I agree with you that we have a long way to go before women are truly equal in our society, but many of the past barbaric practices of the past are unacceptable to us now. We just need to move a lot further in that direction.

The OP is valid in that, once upon a time, selling ones under age daughter into marriage would have drawn no ire. Now it is seen as an atrocity to us, and rightfully so.

a reply to: Klassified

You never heard of the mormon polygamists groups? They are "legally" married to one woman and the other wives draw welfare while getting pregnant? You think those girls choose to be wife number 6 for a guy like Jeffries?