A Person HAS the Right to Discriminate...the Government Does Not

Disclaimer: Please actually read this post before ascribing to me things that I didn't actually say or imply. I am NOT for discriminating against people nor would I make that choice in my professional life.

I realize that I am often the defender of unpopular points of view and while I don't mind people disagreeing with me I do mind people putting words into my mouth and making up things I didn't say so if you do that I won't waste time responding to you.

Now, hear me out...I realize you might not agree with what I am saying, but I do hope you will understand my position and keep your emotions out of the argument because I am not dealing with emotion when I present this simple point of view.

A HUMAN has the right to do whatever they want whenever they want provided it doesn't harm another person or their property. Now, this doesn't mean they might not get their feelings hurt because I don't care about that or what someone 'feels' I am talking in terms of what I believe is right and wrong.

If a person wishes to interact with another person they have the right to do that or not at their discretion. They SHOULD NOT be REQUIRED to interact with anyone against their will. If you don't agree with the behavior YOU have the right to NOT SHOP or frequent their establishment or business. This way NO ONE is being forced to do anything against their will and you have the ability to discourage the demerit behavior by applying or not applying your dollars.

This is my pragmatic view of how life SHOULD be...certainly not how it is right now. I believe that personal liberty is the most important thing...more important than society and more important than the Government.

You might say that if you are doing business then the Government can dictate what you do and I would strongly disagree. The Government should stay out of all transactions between consenting adults. If people want to buy and sell drugs then I don't believe it should be illegal if the two parties are in agreement.

The problem as I see it is we have become to used to letting Government dictate our daily lives and allowing them to be involved in our transactions and commerce. They need to stay out of our lives and stick to the common defense.

Anyway, I don't care if I am unpopular I simply believe that personal freedom is more important than your society.

a reply to: Metallicus

You're beating a dead horse man! This is the lesbians and the bakery all over again. When one opens a public business one must abide by the local, state and federal laws that govern commerce and civil rights.

As an individual, people have the right to discriminate as they wish. That is a matter of personal freedom.

But when you put yourself out there in the public square, offering goods or services to the public at large, you are not guaranteed the same rights as an individual. You are a business entity, not an individual.

Therefore you must follow anti-discrimination laws, as WW said, and service the public equally, regardless of your personal opinions.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Metallicus

You're beating a dead horse man! This the lesbians and the bakery all over again. When one opens a public business one must abide by the local, state and federal laws that govern commerce and civil rights.

WHY?

The Government shouldn't have any input into a persons business. The GOVERNMENT can't discriminate, but individuals have rights that supersede the Government.

ETA: The Government doesn't have the right to destroy someone's right to a livelihood. People can do that, but Government needs to stay out of commerce.

a reply to: Metallicus

I agree with you on most points. You have the right to refuse service to anyone and refuse to interact with whomever you please. Harassment, on the other hand, is not legal, hence while you can refuse someone service you can't then proceed to state to the person "I'm refusing you service because you're black/gay/muslim/christian/etc." Then it's pretty much harassment. The right to refuse service or association is paired with their right to not be badgered about their life choices/religion/race.

The problem lies in the fact that there are some situations, such as in a small town, where the only diner might discriminate against gays, Hispanics, blacks, Muslims, who knows - and if they do this by denial of service, it is effectively shutting down their access to any diners. There might be only one doctor in town, and if he discriminates, then people could die.

In the past, establishments haven't let in blacks - and that was a dark part of our past. So why repeat it with gays?

a reply to: darkbake

It isn't about what we wan't it is about personal liberty. They only way someone isn't being compelled by Government is if neither party is forced to do business. I realize I value you liberty above all, but I fail to see how anyone can feel okay about forcing another person to do something against their will.

Forcing another person to do something goes against everything I believe.

a reply to: Metallicus

Discrimination in business practices is prohibited by federal law. I guess I don't believe people should be able to pick and choose what laws to follow (for the most part -- I do make some exceptions, I admit.)

But if you are talking about a right to discriminate...no, the federal government does not consider that a right.

ETA: Except sexual orientation discrimination...and I see now that is part of this discussion. Discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited by federal law though.

Rights...

"Rights" are an abstract concept we humans invented to justify our actions.

Rights only exist if someone else acknowledges they exist.

Otherwise we wouldn't have a "list of rights" (the constitution & bill of rights). Those are sanctioned and observed "rights" which our forefathers acknowledged and communally agreed that we "have".

No one really has rights in the larger sense. If you were 100% alone in the forest, would you have "rights"? Who would you list your rights to? Who is there to not violate your rights?

What we do have are sanctioned societal mores and cultural norms that allow us to do certain things without punishment from the general population. We are given permission to behave in certain consensus-based agreed upon ways.

If, for example, the general will of the population is that discrimination is undesirable, laws could be passed you would no longer have that "right".

a reply to: Metallicus

I haven't found any examples of business or people that are forced to do business with someone they don't want to do business with, all the examples i've been able to find have had to do with the business or individual actively discriminating against a group.

Take the whole "lesbian bakery" thing, if they'd just shut up and said "Sorry, we are going to have to refuse you service." then there wouldn't have been any legal wrongdoing, but they then told the couple it was because they disapproved of their lifestyle and then proceeded to quote a bible verse telling them why they were sinners. That's harassment.

So if you just say "i'm invoking my right to refuse service. Please leave." then there isn't really anything legally they can do, but don't say "WE DON'T WANT NO NI**ERS IN HERE, GET OUT!" (tongue-in-cheek example, not implying that's something you would say)

a reply to: Metallicus

A HUMAN has the right to do whatever they want whenever they want provided it doesn't harm another person or their property. Now, this doesn't mean they might not get their feelings hurt because I don't care about that or what someone 'feels' I am talking in terms of what I believe is right and wrong.

Perhaps the problem here is that you need to expand your definition of harm? Being denied access to public accommodations is being denied a fundamental benefit of living in a society. A benefit that the merchant is denying another even as he enjoys the benefits of society himself — chiefly that he is able to operate a business — try doing that outside of society.

If a person wishes to interact with another person they have the right to do that or not at their discretion. They SHOULD NOT be REQUIRED to interact with anyone against their will. If you don't agree with the behavior YOU have the right to NOT SHOP or frequent their establishment or business. This way NO ONE is being forced to do anything against their will and you have the ability to discourage the demerit behavior by applying or not applying your dollars.

Nobody is being required to interact with anyone since no one is forcing the business owner to operate an establishment that does business with the public.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Metallicus

Discrimination in business practices is prohibited by federal law. I guess I don't believe people should be able to pick and choose what laws to follow (for the most part -- I do make some exceptions, I admit.)

But if you are talking about a right to discriminate...no, the federal government does not consider that a right.

ETA: Except sexual orientation discrimination...and I see now that is part of this discussion. Discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited by federal law though.

I realize the Government is trying to control the issue. I am simply saying I would jury nullify any 'law' that tried to say a crime was committed when it didn't have to do with person or property.

Having your feelings hurt doesn't mean a crime has been committed and denying service to someone doesn't hurt them in a tangible way.

The law isn't concerned with how you 'feel' it is only concerned with the statute in question.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Nobody is being required to interact with anyone since no one is forcing the business owner to operate an establishment that does business with the public.

Why is Government involved in commerce in the first place? They were only given power over interstate commerce not individual business or transactions. People have a RIGHT to do business just as you have a RIGHT to NOT to business with them or them not to do business with you.

a reply to: Slanter

Why is it harassment if they came to me?

a reply to: darkbake

1. Why would you live somewhere where you are kept from such a thing?

2. If I live in a small town that doesn't have a doctor at all, am I then being discriminated against by the mere lack of that kind of service?

3. In the past, government was often the gatekeeper that prevented businesses from allowing in blacks. The law was that you had to have separate but equal facilities for blacks and whites. If you didn't have the money for two sets of facilities, then the default was to serve whites only in most cases as they had more money to spend. You cannot argue that you know for certain what would happen to gays based on that example as the government's intervention and discriminatory laws (something the OP weighed in against) were clearly skewing the sample you are trying to compare.

a reply to: ketsuko

They came to you for a service, not unsolicited opinions on why you don't like them. Just because someone comes into your business doesn't give you free reign to try to inflict emotional damage.

originally posted by: Slanter
a reply to: ketsuko

They came to you for a service, not unsolicited opinions on why you don't like them. Just because someone comes into your business doesn't give you free reign to try to inflict emotional damage.

"Emotional Damage" come on...people need to cowboy up if they are hurt by what someone else thinks of them. Life isn't a 'safe space'.

a reply to: Slanter

Usually, a person wants to know why they are being denied. What should I do? Lie?

Btw, there is no right to not have emotional damage inflicted on you. Sucks I know, but that's the truth. No one is guaranteed to go through life without getting some bruises to their fragile emotional states.

a reply to: ketsuko

That's what anti-discrimination laws are, laws that make it illegal to harass someone specifically on cultural or moral grounds when someone just wants to get groceries or pump some gas.

And yes, Lie. When they ask say "It is my right to refuse service to anyone I wish" until they leave. If they don't leave threaten to call the police. Is it that important to you to express your distaste for a group of people that you can't just turn the other cheek?

jesus tap dancing christ...
what a world.