Obama visit Castro in La Havana: A Presidential Pardon to a convicted Terrorist?

a reply to: The angel of light

I know he was convicted of other things. You are saying he was convicted of something other than those. You still haven't shown that he was.

originally posted by: The angel of light
Fidel Castro was charged and convicted for his involvement in Terrorist activity on the situation generated in April 9th 1948 under Colombian Law.

Not relevant to what the thread title describes, because an American President has no legal power to give pardons for convictions under Columbian law. A Columbian President might, but a pardon would be coming a little late if the sentence has already been served.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I have exposed the subversive terrorist activities of Fidel Alejandro Castro-Ruz clearly and with solid evidence supporting the so grave claims showed in this thread.

What happened in April 1948 Bogota, where he took part on the plot to Assassinate the Liberal Leader Jorge E. Gaitan was just part of multiple subversive actions he was already involved against different governments of the continent.

Here he joined the Union Insurreccional Revolucionaria (UIR, the Insurrectional Revolutionary Union) and became involved in political disputes that were often violent and sometimes murderous. In 1947 he joined the Partido Ortodoxo and its campaign to expose government corruption and demand reform.

In the summer of 1947, Castro, along with Rolando Masferrer, became part of the Caribbean Legion that attempted to travel to the Dominican Republic and overthrow its government. The attempt failed, however, when the Cuban police intervened. Because of this and his other activities, Castro became known through local radio and the Alerta newspaper
.

Pls Check:

worldhistoryproject.org...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

So, again, not convicted in the USA.

That means he CANNOT get pardoned by the President of the USA.

a reply to: The angel of light

You are missing the point. There has to be due process to convict a person leading to an AMERICAN conviction for an AMERICAN president to offer a pardon. I checked. There is no The People vs Fidel Castro. No conviction, no pardon.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Come on DISRAELI,

The Castro brothers allowed and invited the Soviets to install in their territory missiles with nuclear weapons able to destroy any major city of this country and you say that is not a crime under the law of the USA?

If John F. Kennedy might never have assumed the so drastic reaction against such an evil plan we should be still living right now with such permanent menace still over our heads, day and night.

www.americanrhetoric.com...

When the thread asks to the readers if this would be a kind of Presidential Pardon to terrorists? it is asking it in the most ample sense of the words, without constrained by legal technicalities, but ethical considerations.

No doubt when President Obama is giving to them full political recognition as a the legal government of Cuba with his visit of today he is doing necessarily not only a forgiveness of such threat, he is accepting their regime in all political aspects.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

The Castro brothers allowed and invited the Soviets to install in their territory missiles with nuclear weapons able to destroy any major city of this country and you say that is not a crime under the law of the USA?

Yawn

America deals with Saudi Arabia who are the ones behind ISIS and other terrorist groups how is that not a crime under the law of the USA?

By your logic you would prefer if Cuba was almost like America is today right?

originally posted by: The angel of light
The Castro brothers allowed and invited the Soviets to install in their territory missiles with nuclear weapons able to destroy any major city of this country and you say that is not a crime under the law of the USA?

It is not a crime of which he has been convicted in a court of law.

I suspect the main problem is that English is probably not your first language (I would guess Spanish), and so you don't really understand what the word "convicted" means.
In a legal context (because the word is also used in a religious context), the word "convicted" means "tried in a court of law and found guilty".
Please show us exactly where Castro was tried and found guilty in a court of the United States which held jurisdiction over the case, and we will concede that he was "convicted" and can be given an American pardon.
Otherwise, not.

[N.B. The tricky part is going to be identifying a court of the United States which has any kind of jurisdiction over a foreign leader]

Not charged & convicted in an American court of law means no conviction to pardon. If you really think the opposite, feel free to try to sue over it. Your money & your waste, I say.

And so what if he's visiting a neighboring country? After many decades of hostility, it's a breath of fresh diplomatic air long overdue. Besides, we make vacation trips to & manufacture a TON of our stuff in another communist one with a significantly worse human rights record IMO, so your point? High time to get over ourselves & our commie phobia from the McCarthy era.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Dear DISRAELI,

This has nothing to do with my correct use of language, notice that the thread was opening in the very first paragraph mentioning a legal precedent that contradicts your claims.

Even from the legal point of view your analysis of the metaphor of the Presidential Pardon is not quite complete, in some sense is even wrong.

If you would be right then President Gerald Ford should never have granted a Presidential Pardon to Richard M. Nixon, first because officially he was not even charged at all in Watergate, there were functionaries of his administration certainly messed in courts for the scandal and of course people that were hired by them to do the political espionage in jails, but he was not already charged and far to be convicted.

Pardon of Richard Nixon

President Nixon was never even impeached for Watergate, there was enough evidence to do so though, and a special congress investigation commission was working in that direction, but before they were able to finish their job and recommend the impeachment two events arrived:

The resignation of President Richard Nixon in August 9th 1974 and after that the Presidential Pardon of Ford that came in September 8th 1974 also when he was not even charged and of course he was never convicted.

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION
Richard Nixon became the thirty-seventh President of the United States on January 20, 1969 and was reelected in 1972 for a second term by the electors of forty-nine of the fifty states. His term in office continued until his resignation on August 9, 1974.

Pursuant to resolutions of the House of Representatives, its Committee on the Judiciary conducted an inquiry and investigation on the impeachment of the President extending over more than eight months. The hearings of the Committee and its deliberations, which received wide national publicity over television, radio, and in printed media, resulted in votes adverse to Richard Nixon on recommended Articles of Impeachment.

As a result of certain acts or omissions occurring before his resignation from the Office of President, Richard Nixon has become liable to possible indictment and trial for offenses against the United States. Whether or not he shall be so prosecuted depends on findings of the appropriate grand jury and on the discretion of the authorized prosecutor. Should an indictment ensue, the accused shall then be entitled to a fair trial by an impartial jury, as guaranteed to every individual by the Constitution.

It is believed that a trial of Richard Nixon, if it became necessary, could not fairly begin until a year or more has elapsed. In the meantime, the tranquility to which this nation has been restored by the events of recent weeks could be irreparably lost by the prospects of bringing to trial a former President of the United States. The prospects of such trial will cause prolonged and divisive debate over the propriety of exposing to further punishment and degradation a man who has already paid the unprecedented penalty of relinquishing the highest elective office of the United States.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and seventy-four, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and ninety-ninth.

Pls check: en.wikisource.org...

After Ford left the White House in 1977, he privately justified his pardon of Nixon by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of Burdick v. United States, a 1915 U.S. Supreme Court decision which stated that a pardon indicated a presumption of guilt, and that acceptance of a pardon was tantamount to a confession of that guilt.

Richard Nixon, September 8th 1974:
I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate, particularly when it reached the stage of judicial proceedings and grew from a political scandal into a national tragedy. No words can describe the depth of my regret and pain at the anguish my mistakes over Watergate have caused the nation and the presidency, a nation I so deeply love, and an institution I so greatly respect

In 2001, the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation awarded the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award to Gerald Rudolph Ford Jr, for his pardon of Nixon. In presenting the award to Ford, Senator Ted Kennedy said that he had initially been opposed to the pardon of Nixon, but later stated that history had proved Ford to have made the correct decision.

Please notice that Gerald R Ford received LL.B. degree in 1941 from Yale Law School, graduating in the top 25 percent of his class. He was also the youngest member of the Warren Commission that carried out all the official criminal investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Thanks to give me the opportunity to show that indeed a person that is not yet charged or convicted, no indicted of any crime in an American court can receive a Presidential Pardon.

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: DISRAELI

Come on DISRAELI,

The Castro brothers allowed and invited the Soviets to install in their territory missiles with nuclear weapons able to destroy any major city of this country and you say that is not a crime under the law of the USA?

Exactly the same as the USA did in many other countries....
Please show exactly which law you are talking about.

When the thread asks to the readers if this would be a kind of Presidential Pardon to terrorists?

What are you babbling about, exactly where were they tried and convicted of that in the USA?

originally posted by: The angel of light
Thanks to give me the opportunity to show that indeed a person that is not yet charged or convicted in an American court can receive such a Presidential Pardon.

At least now you are admitting that Castro was "never convicted in an American court", which was exactly the point of my last post.
I was trying to explain to you why the word "convicted" was wrong for the situation.

Thank you for acknowledging that you were incorrect in using the word "convicted" in your title, which is part of what I was trying to demonstrate all along.

a reply to: hellobruce

Really Dear hellobruce,

May I ask what Colombia did to this individual Fidel Alejandro Castro-Ruz to deserve to have destroyed the entire downtown of his Historic Capital and about 7000 death people in 9 days?

This man in his schizophrenic mind has for years justified his criminal activities accusing everybody he has damaged of Imperialists, but such an accusation does not work at all with Colombia.

What excuse has Castro to have prepared, planned and carried out such a horrendous assassination plot and terrorist attack that fired more than a hundred forty buildings, many of which had centuries to have been built and belonged to the Cultural patrimony of Humanity, against a nation that never has been involved in any kind of imperialist action against any other country?

His action on the Bogotazo 1948 was coward, miserable, criminal against humanity, considering that Colombia never had nothing to do with his terrorist life in Cuba, or in any other country he was accused of crimes before.

If Fidel Castro would have done against America what he did against Colombia in 1948 he should be now already killed as it happened with Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden years ago, or still yet under unmerciful hunting by American arm forces and agencies.

Castro himself has recognized that he learnt from his experience agitating the people to fight against the government in his role of what happened in Bogota 1948, that it was easy to carried out an effective Revolution using guerrillas war than fighting in the streets openly against Army.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Fidel Castro was already militant in the international communism as a terrorist agent to boost revolutions or other kind of strong political actions even probably before 1948.

From Institute for U.S.-Cuba Relations, Occasional Paper Series, Vol.1, No.1 November 3, 1997

Diaz-Verson, a distinguished Cuban journalist and intelligence officer, gathered evidence of Castro's connection with the Soviet Union dating back to 1943. His account of when Castro became a communist is of importance from a U.S. policy perspective; it is both historically significant and contextually accurate. Cuba established diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union in October 1942 with Maxim Litvinov having presented his credentials in April 1943.(38) Given that Cuba had the strongest Communist Party in Latin America at the time "regarded as a sort of Caribbean regional headquarters"(39) in which the "Soviet government placed a high value,"(40) it is not unthinkable that Castro did indeed come under the influence of Gumer W. Bashirov in the early months of 1943 as Diaz-Verson has described in his seminal paper reprinted below entitled "When Castro Became A Communist."

Pls check:

www.freerepublic.com...

Think on that please.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Are you going to show us all where, in all of your posts, he has been convicted?

I've been waiting since page 1. We're now near the end of page 2. Still not shown it.

originally posted by: The angel of light

What excuse has Castro to have prepared, planned and carried out such a horrendous assassination plot and terrorist attack that fired more than a hundred buildings, many of which had centuries to have been built and belonged to the Cultural patrimony of Humanity, against a nation that never has been involved in any kind of imperialist action against any other country?

Let us look at the places the USA has attacked....

(1) American Indian nations (1776 onwards, American Indian Genocide; 1803, Louisiana Purchase; 1844, Indians banned from east of the Mississippi; 1861 onwards, California genocide; 1890, Lakota Indians massacre), (2) Mexico (1836-1846; 1913; 1914-1918; 1923), (3) Nicaragua (1856-1857; 1894; 1896; 1898; 1899; 1907; 1910; 1912-1933; 1981-1990), (4) American forces deployed against Americans (1861-1865, Civil War; 1892; 1894; 1898; 1899-1901; 1901; 1914; 1915; 1920-1921; 1932; 1943; 1967; 1968; 1970; 1973; 1992; 2001), (5), Argentina (1890), (6), Chile (1891; 1973), (7) Haiti (1891; 1914-1934; 1994; 2004-2005), (8) Hawaii (1893-), (9) China (1895-1895; 1898-1900; 1911-1941; 1922-1927; 1927-1934; 1948-1949; 1951-1953; 1958), (10) Korea (1894-1896; 1904-1905; 1951-1953), (11) Panama (1895; 1901-1914; 1908; 1912; 1918-1920; 1925; 1958; 1964; 1989-), (12) Philippines (1898-1910; 1948-1954; 1989; 2002-), (13) Cuba (1898-1902; 1906-1909; 1912; 1917-1933; 1961; 1962), (14) Puerto Rico (1898-; 1950; ); (15) Guam (1898-), (16) Samoa (1899-), (17) Honduras (1903; 1907; 1911; 1912; 1919; 1924-1925; 1983-1989), (18) Dominican Republic (1903-1904; 1914; 1916-1924; 1965-1966), (19) Germany (1917-1918; 1941-1945; 1948; 1961), (20) Russia (1918-1922), (21) Yugoslavia (1919; 1946; 1992-1994; 1999), (22) Guatemala (1920; 1954; 1966-1967), (23) Turkey (1922), (24) El Salvador (1932; 1981-1992), (25) Italy (1941-1945); (26) Morocco (1941-1945), (27) France (1941-1945), (28) Algeria (1941-1945), (29) Tunisia (1941-1945), (30) Libya (1941-1945; 1981; 1986; 1989; 2011), (31) Egypt (1941-1945; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2013), (32) India (1941-1945), (33) Burma (1941-1945), (34) Micronesia (1941-1945), (35) Papua New Guinea (1941-1945), (36) Vanuatu (1941-1945), (37) Austria (1941-1945), (38) Hungary (1941-1945), (39) Japan (1941-1945), (40) Iran (1946; 1953; 1980; 1984; 1987-1988; ), (41) Uruguay (1947), (42) Greece (1947-1949), (43) Vietnam (1954; 1960-1975), (44) Lebanon (1958; 1982-1984), (45) Iraq (1958; 1963; 1990-1991; 1990-2003; 1998; 2003-2011), (46) Laos (1962-), (47) Indonesia (1965), (48) Cambodia (1969-1975; 1975), (49) Oman (1970), (50) Laos (1971-1973), (51) Angola (1976-1992), (52) Grenada (1983-1984), (53) Bolivia (1986; ), (54) Virgin Islands (1989), (55) Liberia (1990; 1997; 2003), (56) Saudi Arabia (1990-1991), (57) Kuwait (1991), (58) Somalia (1992-1994; 2006), (59) Bosnia (1993-), (60) Zaire (Congo) (1996-1997), (61) Albania (1997), (62) Sudan (1998), (63) Afghanistan (1998; 2001-), (64) Yemen (2000; 2002-), (65) Macedonia (2001), (66) Colombia (2002-), (67) Pakistan (2005-), (68) Syria (2008; 2011-), (69) Uganda (2011), (70) Mali (2013), (71) Niger (2013).

The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers,


I prefer to remain extremely cautious to qualify the visit of President Obama in Cuba, I think only History will tell us the real impact of this visit and also if this so close encounter will be in the long run a real achievement for the cause of freedom and democracy in the hemisphere or a terrible mistake.

Three times in History US Presidents have recognized Foreign Totalitarian Dictators in similar meetings: Yalta 1944 when FDR met Stalin, 1973 when R.Nixon met Mao Tse-Tung in Beijing and 1975 when Gerald Ford met Francisco Franco in Madrid.

Please Check:

www.msn.com...

www.msn.com...

At least in Public Fidel A. Castro was not present in the acts of the visit, but we don't know if a private encounter has taken place that perhaps might be for mutual convenience carried out with extreme discretion.

www.msn.com...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: jrod
Dont write Fidel and Raul.Castro off as terrorist just because of US propaganda and misinformation.

Watch this documentary with Fidel, and you may have a much different opinion about him.

I had a teacher in High School that was from Cuba. The subject of Fidel and Che came up one day. The look on his face was indescribable. He sat for a few minuteds and listened and then he stopped the discussion and told us his personal experience. He actually knew Fidel Castro. He went to school with him. I actually looked him up and verified his story years later. Fidel hid his true intentions and when he had control, he revealed his true nature. My teacher and his family fled Cuba and were almost stopped. They managed to escape. I will not watch a video that rewrites history and makes a hero out of him. I will believe someone that witnessed it first hand.

a reply to: TerryDon79

About Fidel Castro involvement in the huge subversion terrorist action in Bogota, on April 1948, there are hundreds of pages of really interesting documents to check, that show how implicated was him in the plot.

Unfortunately, almost all is written in Spanish, now since I am of course unaware if you speak or at least understand that language, let me at least have the courtesy that translate for you this: ( Although I don't expect your approval or credit since you could be here just to boycott the thread of course)

La turba energúmena salió de la Tercera División a repetir la toma del Palacio Presidencial. Ahora las armas no serían machetes, piedras, tubos de acero, expresiones soeces sino tiros. Entre los últimos del tumulto caminaba un muchacho que le llamó la atención al Comandante por su desenfado. El Mayor Arce Vera recuerda en 1978 la impresión suya a un reportero de la revista "Bohemia" (La Habana, 21 de abril, número 16).

"Entre los que salían de la División había un joven alto, trigueño con una boina vasca. Lo llamé y le pregunté quien era, pues su aspecto era distinto, no se... Entonces me contestó con un acento costeño: -"Nosotros (a su lado iba Rafael del Pino) somos cubanos y vamos a combatir por la muerte del líder de la democracia". Esas fueron sus palabras. Y aquello me impresionó. Por eso, entre tantos recuerdos de aquellos momentos este se me grabó, aunque no podía decir de quién se trataba. Días después Laureano Gómez fue quien habló de la presencia del cubano Fidel Castro en Colombia y que había venido a sabotear la Conferencia Panamericana. Entonces lo relacioné con aquel muchacho armado con su fusil, saliendo con la muchedumbre, tomando por la carrera Tercera, hacia la calle Once, con rumbo a Palacio, hasta que ya no lo vi...".

Translation:

The furious crowd of crooks left the third division of the police station to repeat the assault to the Presidential Palace, now the arms were no longer just stones, machetes, steel pipes or profane language, but guns and rifles. In the multitude there was a fellow that caught his attention for his skilled way of walking. The Office Arce Vera recalled this in an interview to the Cuban magazine "bohemia", ( La Habana April 21st 1948)

" Among the ones that were leaving the Police station there was a Caucasian tall young men with a Basque on his head, I called him and I ask him who he was? since his aspect was different, like of a foreigner, then he answered me with a Caribbean accent:
We are Cuban, aside of him was Rafael del Pino, and we are going to fight to take revenge for the death of the leader of the People, those words remained in my memory, those are my remembrances and that time I was unaware of the figure I have met. it was only days after that I heard Senator Laureano Gomez reporting that communists were involved in the assassination of Gaitan, to boycott the Pan-American Conference, that I was able to relate the two facts. I realized Fidel Castro was the person I saw that day in the corner of Third avenue with Eleven St. of downtown Bogota. He disappeared in the distance in his way toward the Palace. "

Pls check:

ciberpensadores.blogspot.com...

www.angelfire.com...

Thanks,

The Angel of Ligthness

a reply to: The angel of light

Yes I understand a little Spanish.

Still nothing there saying he was a convicted terrorist.

Now, he might well be a terrorist in a lot of peoples eyes. I won't disagree with that. What I do disagree with is you calling him a "convicted terrorist".

You haven't shown ANYWHERE that he was convicted as being a terrorist. None of your links and quotes show him to be a convicted terrorist.

a reply to: The angel of light


The Castro's have the best golf courses of any commie country.

That's why he went.