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The earliest known examples of mathematical and geometric astronomy have been identified in a series of ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets.
An analysis of the tablets, reported in the journal Science, reveals ancient Babylonians were able to calculate the position of Jupiter using geometric techniques previously believed to have been first used some 1,400 years later in 14th century Europe.
“These texts are the earliest evidence we have from antiquity of mathematical astronomy,” said the study’s author Dr Mathieu Ossendrijver, a historian on Babylonian astronomy with the Humboldt University in Berlin.The earliest known examples of mathematical and geometric astronomy have been identified in a series of ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets.
An analysis of the tablets, reported in the journal Science, reveals ancient Babylonians were able to calculate the position of Jupiter using geometric techniques previously believed to have been first used some 1,400 years later in 14th century Europe.
“These texts are the earliest evidence we have from antiquity of mathematical astronomy,” said the study’s author Dr Mathieu Ossendrijver, a historian on Babylonian astronomy with the Humboldt University in Berlin.
These tablets redefine our history books as the origins of calculus are generally traced back to the Middle Ages when people began using geometry to calculate velocity by plotting the position of an object against time.
“This is highly surprising. No-one expected to find something like this in antiquity,” Dr Ossendrijver said.
“While ancient Greeks used geometrical figures to describe configurations in physical space, centuries earlier these Babylonian tablets used geometry in an abstract sense to define time and velocity.”
“We’re not really sure why the Babylonians were so interested in the motion of the planet Jupiter, but one possible explanation is that Jupiter was associated with Marduk the supreme god of Babylon,” Dr Ossendrijver said.
originally posted by: intrptr
probably protecting the flocks and herds of animals from predators.
originally posted by: intrptr
Because they were bored, it was brightest and it moved.
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: SLAYER69
If the Nephilim/'mighty ones of old' had six fingers on each hand (as some traditions hold) and they were pivotal in Sumerian society, then this would also be a reason for them to choose this number system.
“If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the right hand—poverty will seize the house of the man.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the left hand—[the mother] is endowed with prosperity; [the man’s] adversary will die.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers each on its right and left hands—the descendants [of the house] will be poverty-stricken.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right and left feet—the descendants of that house will be scattered.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right foot—[the child] is endowed with worrying.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its left foot—[the child] is endowed with [ … ]. If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers [and toes] on each of its right and left hands and right and left feet—the land will live undisturbed.”
originally posted by: Marduk
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: SLAYER69
If the Nephilim/'mighty ones of old' had six fingers on each hand (as some traditions hold) and they were pivotal in Sumerian society, then this would also be a reason for them to choose this number system.
The Nephilim feature in a book which wasn't even written when the Chaldeans were star gazing. And there are no Mesopotamian myths about people with six fingers.
There are Mesopotamian medical records, most notably the šumma izbu (reject births), dating back to the First Babylonian Dynasty — Amorite Dynasty 1894–1595 BC from which the following is copied
“If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the right hand—poverty will seize the house of the man.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the left hand—[the mother] is endowed with prosperity; [the man’s] adversary will die.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers each on its right and left hands—the descendants [of the house] will be poverty-stricken.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right and left feet—the descendants of that house will be scattered.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right foot—[the child] is endowed with worrying.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its left foot—[the child] is endowed with [ … ]. If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers [and toes] on each of its right and left hands and right and left feet—the land will live undisturbed.”
Note, that there is no mention made at all of Nephilim, men of reknown, or anything else which would indicate mythology or a group that would not even exist for another thousand years
originally posted by: Marduk
originally posted by: chr0naut
Thanks, I was going from Hebrew sources, which many deny relate details before Moses. I believe that they do,
I guess that depends on whether you believe in talking snakes or not
That Satan is associated with a serpent or dragon may be entirely metaphoric or may be due to "possession" of the animal (as previously suggested).
Lots of cultures have malign talking dragons. It seems deeply ingrained.
originally posted by: glend
Doesn't surprise given their brain size wasn't too different to brain size today. .
More interested in why they were tracking jupiter in the sky. Was astrology yesteryears science, why does interest in planets seem to be everywhere in ancient societies.
originally posted by: Marduk
That Satan is associated with a serpent or dragon may be entirely metaphoric or may be due to "possession" of the animal (as previously suggested).
I think it has a lot more to do with stealing the concepts of your religion from the Civilisations around you, especially ones which enslave you, who use a dragon as the symbol of their Chief deity. SA.AN is a Mesopotamian term which means "Opposed/Equal to heaven/God"
Lots of cultures have malign talking dragons. It seems deeply ingrained.
It spread from Babylon around 1600BCE, when the Hittites conquered the city, (The first appearence of a Dragon in that culture dates to around 2500BCE which is the same time as contact with the Harappan culture began under Sargon the Great.) The Hittites took the cult statue of Bel Marduk home with them and started worshipping it. The worship included a reading of the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation Epic in which Tiamat is introduced. From Anatolia it spread to Palestine, where St George was later added to the story and where his tomb was located. From Palestine, to Greece, then Rome, etc etc
Its what happens when you have one civilisation claiming that their God can defeat lions and a neighbouring culture saying "Wait til you see what our God can defeat"
Its still being used for that purpose today, you know, only God can defeat the Great Red dragon, well unless you're counting Will Graham.
Its not a case of many cultures inventing dragons, just of one great story used to glorify your God jumping from culture to culture
originally posted by: glend
Doesn't surprise given their brain size wasn't too different to brain size today. .
Their brain size was exactly the same as ours today, we are exactly the same species
More interested in why they were tracking jupiter in the sky. Was astrology yesteryears science, why does interest in planets seem to be everywhere in ancient societies.
Astrology started for the purpose of foretelling Omens and time keeping.
originally posted by: chr0naut
It could be argued that the Vedas document in poetry, concepts that had become traditional verbal traditions. The Rig Veda, which some have suggested dates from 1700 BC speaks of the serpent or dragon, Vritra, the personification of drought and adversity.
It could be from transference of legends between the cultures but there is significant enough difference between the vedic descriptions of gods and their exploits and Ugarit pantheon and their exploits to make that not very likely.
originally posted by: Marduk
originally posted by: chr0naut
It could be argued that the Vedas document in poetry, concepts that had become traditional verbal traditions. The Rig Veda, which some have suggested dates from 1700 BC speaks of the serpent or dragon, Vritra, the personification of drought and adversity.
It could be from transference of legends between the cultures but there is significant enough difference between the vedic descriptions of gods and their exploits and Ugarit pantheon and their exploits to make that not very likely.
Vritra seems more like a giant snake to me, from a country that had giant snakes that's not very surprising.
A more direct comparison can be made between Bel Marduk and Harappan Rudra (who became Shiva) and Tiamat and the Makara. Tiamat and the Makara were both sea monsters and Bel Marduk and Rudra. both traditionally armed with tridents. Tridents are an oceanic weapon for attacking large ocean creatures
Religions tend to keep the bits from other cultures that they like and dump the rest, so you won't find significant similarities
“I discovered that they describe the motion of Jupiter as a velocity, the number of degrees it moves across the sky in a day,” Dr Ossendrijver said. “If you plot the velocity of Jupiter against time, you get a creeping curve which looks like a rectangle with a slanted top — that’s the trapezoid.”
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: chr0naut
Did you see him mention the Harappan Culture?
Harte
Yes, I did, which was why I qualified it by mentioning the differences between the Vedic pantheon and the Ugarit pantheon as a possible indicator of two separate traditions.
originally posted by: chr0naut
So, could the dragon/serpent concept actually be an import from the Indus Valley rather than an export from Sargon's Akkad?