Delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection, IT ISN'T ANYMORE

According to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, organisms that possess heritable traits that enable them to better adapt to their environment compared with other members of their species will be more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass more of their genes on to the next generation.
www.nas.edu...

Delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection

delusion
noun
belief in something that is not ​true
dictionary.cambridge.org...

God's little rabbits: Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide

I realize that many here do not want to call religious people delusional for various reasons. Look at the following chart:



In a best-case scenario, just one of the groups above can be correct in their beliefs, the rest of them would then be proven to be delusional. I believe they're all wrong in their beliefs and therefore they are all delusional. My argument goes like this:

Religious people are delusional
Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide
Therefore, delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection

Why did I use the past tense for the third sentence?

Earth is on brink of a sixth mass extinction, scientists say, and it’s humans’ fault

No promises in Fukushima cleanup, director says

There are two examples that prove that if humanity collectively doesn't progress in a substantial way (and relatively soon), we could have problems beyond anyone's imagination. However, as I look around I see so much delusion. I don't see people taking the problems very seriously at all (if they ever even think about them).

All of the above has led me to believe that we have a delusional human race as a result of natural selection. The delusional have been doing most of the breeding probably since the beginning of our species. What we're left with is delusional people everywhere, from top to bottom. The delusional have almost completely bred out the non-delusional.

The problem is, I'm of the opinion that the delusional aren't capable of changing enough to stop the sixth mass extinction or Fukushima or any of a number of other huge catastrophes that are occurring or seem to be looming.

I'll be looking forward to the "Don't worry, this is the last days" kind of comments that will only help prove my point.

a reply to: Profusion

No more questions... Wait a second

will you be here tomorrow ?

a reply to: Profusion

I guess the world has no hope, of ever releasing itself from the never ending clutch of Indoctrinated Religious Death all for the good of Mankind. Nor am I surprised, by this dream mare of never ending mass subliminal crap.

a reply to: Profusion

I think something more profound is actually going on here and that breeding for survival comes down to 2 species coexisting on this planet - and never the twain shall meet.

Ever wondered why rabbits et al breed like crazy but show little concern for each other when one dies?
Ever wonder why Lions breed very selectively and show concern for their offspring and will protect them at all costs?
Ever wonder why conservatives and liberals have diametrically opposing view points on how society should be maintained?

Welcome to the theory of Gene wars between r series and K series species that exist on this planet.

Occasionally new information completely blow your mind - and this is one of those times! Stefan Molyneux breaks down the basics of the genetic warfare which is the foundation of all living creatures. Different reproduction strategies have emerged over time and this is explained through r/K Selection Theory. When you look at humanity through the lens of reproduction strategies - it's something you can never, and will never, be able to unsee!

Thanks to ATS member greencmp for introducing me to this theory

Awareness, objective logic and critical reasoning is unfortunately not distributed equally in this social environment. Suffering will continue since us vs them thinking have not been tempered with reason and emotion is more important than facts/objective observation.

The three Abrahamic religions have duality separation (us vs them thinking) built into them depending on religious flavor:
The old testament had it from the beginning.
Paul added it to the new testament.
Muhammad clearly use the duality separation as a tool to gain followers and justify insane behaviors.

In a way it is sad that the Muslim today have to deal with 1400 years of cultural stagnation in a short while, since the rest of the world is feed up with the behavior that it fosters and seed violence. Much suffering on all sides since self awareness is not allowed to surface past the brain washing.

But at the same time I think people who believe that capitalism works do not understand the difference between an equal society and a power pyramid. You will never get an perfect version of capitalism since the self interest of a few, will make information shared equally impossible since it will reduce the possible profits and you get stuck in a feudal like master/slave system based on the power pyramid. Greed will always counter real free market and manipulate the markets to become controlled by a few/one. And therefore capitalism becomes a Ponzi Scheme.

um.
1) religious groups provide safety networks for each other, material as well as emotional. advantage, persons of faith.

2) religious peoples teach their children values (honesty, hard work, respect for others, respect for life) that greatly benefit society. nonbelievers like Stalin and Mao, lacking these values, massacred millions. workplace alcoholism and theft in atheistic USSR caused all sorts of problems.

3) religious peoples emphasize the importance of other people and that they should be respected, even loved. ('love thy neighbor as thyself'). non-religious peoples tend to the selfish.

remember, every society in known history has had some kind of religion / religious system. true atheistic cultures are almost unknown until the 20th century, and marxist USSR / People's Republic of China, were not places any of us would want to live.

if supernatural belief systems (religions) were not beneficial they would not still be followed by billions.

things like pollution are not caused by religious belief systems, they are caused by plain old human greed and indifference to others, which is exactly what religions teach against.
our problem today is not too many believers; our problem today is too few believers.

originally posted by: ElGoobero
um.
1) religious groups provide safety networks for each other, material as well as emotional. advantage, persons of faith.

2) religious peoples teach their children values (honesty, hard work, respect for others, respect for life) that greatly benefit society. nonbelievers like Stalin and Mao, lacking these values, massacred millions. workplace alcoholism and theft in atheistic USSR caused all sorts of problems.


3) religious peoples emphasize the importance of other people and that they should be respected, even loved. ('love thy neighbor as thyself'). non-religious peoples tend to the selfish.

remember, every society in known history has had some kind of religion / religious system. true atheistic cultures are almost unknown until the 20th century, and marxist USSR / People's Republic of China, were not places any of us would want to live.

if supernatural belief systems (religions) were not beneficial they would not still be followed by billions.

things like pollution are not caused by religious belief systems, they are caused by plain old human greed and indifference to others, which is exactly what religions teach against.
our problem today is not too many believers; our problem today is too few believers.

They're beneficial, financially, to the people that run them.

Religion is indoctrination and believing that you get an even better existence after this one is delusional.

a reply to: Profusion

Let's clarify

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: refined

Let's clarify more

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Profusion

It is not delusion itself that has a positive or negative survival impact, it is the content of the delusions. The delusion that a higher power will solve all your problems can retard your progress; the delusion that Humanity is perfectible can encourage you to struggle on. Of course, being free of all delusion would be the ideal, so the delusion that it is possible to become free of all delusions can be a major stumbling block, particularly if you delude yourself into believing that you have achieved freedom from delusion.

originally posted by: Profusion

According to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, organisms that possess heritable traits that enable them to better adapt to their environment compared with other members of their species will be more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass more of their genes on to the next generation.
www.nas.edu...

Delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection

delusion
noun
belief in something that is not ​true
dictionary.cambridge.org...

God's little rabbits: Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide

I realize that many here do not want to call religious people delusional for various reasons. Look at the following chart:

In a best-case scenario, just one of the groups above can be correct in their beliefs, the rest of them would then be proven to be delusional. I believe they're all wrong in their beliefs and therefore they are all delusional. My argument goes like this:

Religious people are delusional
Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide
Therefore, delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection

Why did I use the past tense for the third sentence?

Earth is on brink of a sixth mass extinction, scientists say, and it’s humans’ fault

No promises in Fukushima cleanup, director says

There are two examples that prove that if humanity collectively doesn't progress in a substantial way (and relatively soon), we could have problems beyond anyone's imagination. However, as I look around I see so much delusion. I don't see people taking the problems very seriously at all (if they ever even think about them).

All of the above has led me to believe that we have a delusional human race as a result of natural selection. The delusional have been doing most of the breeding probably since the beginning of our species. What we're left with is delusional people everywhere, from top to bottom. The delusional have almost completely bred out the non-delusional.

The problem is, I'm of the opinion that the delusional aren't capable of changing enough to stop the sixth mass extinction or Fukushima or any of a number of other huge catastrophes that are occurring or seem to be looming.

I'll be looking forward to the "Don't worry, this is the last days" kind of comments that will only help prove my point.

All things are possible. Discovering something is possible makes it true. Belief and physical action do not always go hand in hand and actions don't always require belief but still stand as true. Breathing is an example. Not all things are possible for those that give up on possibility or close themselves off to it believing they've maxed out all possibilities. What is possible for one person may not be for the other. What is true for one person may be false for another. An example of this is a person believing they feel like a woman when they are biologically a man then medically altering their biological make-up to represent a female. Science takes a belief and begins processes in discovering if it's true.

If one has a belief then it is true to them. If one has a dream with remembering the dream that is true to them as they experienced it unwillingly. Proving to someone else what the actual dream they had was doesn't make it really true for the other person listening unless they then have the exact or at least similar dream. But we do know that its true people usually dream because most people experience dreaming and brain imagery reveals it. The term delusion seems to be more about the confusion of truth.

As far as the radiation goes, that is something to be concerned about when humankind creates it here on earth as it alters the atmosphere and changes cellular structure and chemicals in the brain artificially.

You yourself are taking advantage of the changed and artificial atmosphere with transmitting your thoughts into words using a complex system that funnels it through the atmosphere into others computers who are thousands of miles, if not more, away from you. The belief that this would have ever been possible hundreds of years ago wouldn't have been held by many.

Our atmosphere has become artificial in many ways and is interacting with the natural which can be harmful, so looking for ways to preserve natural and keep it flourishing is important although this doesn't fit your current line of thought due to you believing that natural selection is problematic in itself.

a reply to: Profusion

Why is this in skunk works? This seems to be a practical theory based on many social models from the past few thousand years. Believing the delusion of being god's special person is a highly beneficial survival choice. It has exalted plenty of pastors to the millionaire's club, and opens doors that are closed permanently for those non believers in a community.

Again, why is this in skunk works?

a reply to: Profusion

In a best-case scenario, just one of the groups above can be correct in their beliefs, the rest of them would then be proven to be delusional. I believe they're all wrong in their beliefs and therefore they are all delusional.

Thank you. After reading your post, I have a whole new way of looking at religion (and the lack thereof).

In the past, I would have said that all these groups can be correct -- but not completely correct. And I would have suggested that those who claim to know that all are wrong would be making themselves exactly what they say cannot and does not exist: an all-knowing and all-seeing being to be worshipped at the "Church of Me."

But now I know better. It may not be all ego that leads people to believe they are the omnipotent being that others just don't recognize... Now I know it's all about delusions... delusions of grandeur!!!

Thank you.

a reply to: Profusion

The British Monarchy can supposedly be traced back to God himself.

Now if that were true...why did they pollute the greatest genetic lineage of all time? Maybe if they interbred then the purity could be preserved...Hindsight is a prick sometimes.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Profusion

It is not delusion itself that has a positive or negative survival impact, it is the content of the delusions. The delusion that a higher power will solve all your problems can retard your progress; the delusion that Humanity is perfectible can encourage you to struggle on. Of course, being free of all delusion would be the ideal, so the delusion that it is possible to become free of all delusions can be a major stumbling block, particularly if you delude yourself into believing that you have achieved freedom from delusion.

otoh, belief in a Higher Power, and a judgment day, might alter your behavior to something more positive and helpful to others, and a more moral self, while denial of same will lead to rejection of a moral code and a philosophy of do-what-you-want and screw everyone else.

I keep hearing 'delusions of belief in religions/gods'. how about, God is real, and it's delusional to deny His existence.

Flawed logic.

Everybody who drinks water will die, therefore does water kill us all? No.

It is more than likely that breeding rates are impacted by social behaviours which is not exclusively linked to religion, or delusion for that matter.
If you spend more time around other people, you are more likely to meet a compatible partner and thus, are more likely to produce offspring. Church or other places of worship could be considered a social venue.

There are many, many factors which influence birth rates.

a reply to: ElGoobero

otoh, belief in a Higher Power, and a judgment day, might alter your behavior to something more positive and helpful to others, and a more moral self, while denial of same will lead to rejection of a moral code and a philosophy of do-what-you-want and screw everyone else.

The people burning heretics alive believed in a Higher Power (God). The people gassing women and children in the KLs believed in a Higher Power (German Destiny). The Japanese scientists who experimented on unwilling victims believed in a Higher Power (the Emperor). Believing in a Higher Power frees people to do unconscionable things in its name.

Only by taking direct responsibility for one's own actions can one truly be moral.

originally posted by: LilFox
Flawed logic.

Everybody who drinks water will die, therefore does water kill us all? No.

It is more than likely that breeding rates are impacted by social behaviours which is not exclusively linked to religion, or delusion for that matter.
If you spend more time around other people, you are more likely to meet a compatible partner and thus, are more likely to produce offspring. Church or other places of worship could be considered a social venue.

There are many, many factors which influence birth rates.

Here's my argument again:

Religious people are delusional
Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide
Therefore, delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection

There are unstated premises in that argument. The unstated premises would include Charles Darwin's theory of evolution (I put a definition of that in the original post). Another unstated premise is the definition of natural selection within the context of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution:

natural selection
a process in which individual organisms or phenotypes that possess favorable traits are more likely to survive and reproduce
Source

When you take the whole argument in context including the unstated premises (which I didn't think I had to put in my argument because I thought the rest of the post made it clear), it's not flawed logic. It follows perfectly with Charles Darwin's theory of evolution IMHO.

If you don't agree with any part of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution then you could claim there's flawed logic in my argument, I agree. That's one reason why I feel this thread belongs in the Skunkworks forum.

There are many, many factors which influence birth rates.

I'm positing that delusion has been a beneficial trait for natural selection among humans up until the present time. I'm not claiming that it's the only one.

Are you saying that because of beliefs in a creator and his command to 'go forth and multiply' is the reason religious types have more children?

Because you could argue that it is mainly the parts of the world that have the lowest life expectancy that have the highest birth rates - look at the birth rates of nations around the world and as their life expectancy increases so the birth rate tends to fall.

originally posted by: johnb
Are you saying that because of beliefs in a creator and his command to 'go forth and multiply' is the reason religious types have more children?

I didn't discuss any of the reasons for why what I proposed may be happening in the original post because I thought it was going off on a tangent.

But, since you asked, I'll give you my opinion on why I believe delusion was once a beneficial trait for natural selection.

In my experience, delusional people are often intoxicating. For instance, I've seen many women in my life who were probably only average-looking but they believed they were supermodel-level beauty. For some reason, their delusional confidence affected me and pulled me into their belief system. Their delusion somehow changed reality to a certain extent IMHO.

That applies in both good and bad ways. Con artists can be so deluded that they convince themselves they're not lying. Their confidence can then rub off on their "marks" to the point that they have a mild kind of mind control over their "marks."

Then, when you add in the power of faith in a religion, I think the effect I just described could be even greater.

I would say that type of thing explains the placebo effect and the nocebo effect. I could go on discussing this because I think it's fascinating but here's a striking example:


www.youtube.com...

I would say Britney Spears is one of the most attractive women in the world. But, in the video above she looks horribly ugly to me. Is it delusional confidence that helps her to transform into a great-looking woman? I would bet the answer to that question is yes.