Muslim speaking out!

a reply to: Kapusta

Here is the problem, it was the same as with the Christians in the dark ages, the moderates that spoke out were branded heretics banished, tortured until they recanted or killed. Islam is where Christianity was at in the dark ages.

I recently was watching a video and a moderate Muslim who escaped from Saudi Arabia wrote letter to a well known western celebrity, in it he said people ask where the moderate Muslims are, I will tell you where they are, they are in jail or dead in Islamic countries, their voice has been silenced. Only moderate Muslims in the west dare speak out, but they have risk too, the radicals target them as well. It seems to be a lose/lose catch 21 scenario for moderate Muslim all over the world right now. And when I say moderate, I mean those who DON'T support Sharia law.

Fact: If you support Sharia law you are not a moderate Muslim, that is indisputable and a reality of 2015.

Out of the 1.5 billion, how many are estimated to be radicalized? 18-25%? That's a very large number. Perhaps rather than worrying about what people on a forum are saying about the actions of people who practice your faith, Muslims stand up to these people who are making their faith look so bad. If you want to show people that the actions of radicals are not representative of your faith, do something about it.

a reply to: skoalman88

how many are estimated to be radicalized? 18-25%?

Source?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Point taken. But it does not change my opinion that Islam, like all religions under the covers, is a religion of violence and oppression, not of peace. I just had a read of the latest "Dabiq" magazine. :O

This is written by Muslims, for Muslims. It was awful -- the amount of hatred and violence it spouted against those who prefer freedom and democracy.

And the entire document - and I am not exaggerating here - was laced with religious proverbs. Each atrocity or horrible act was backed up by some silly religious quote.

You might say, "That's not the real Islam" or, "They are real Muslims" -- well, who says so? THEY certainly seem to think they are and in fact, call the moderate or "normal" Muslims the "fake" ones. Who makes that call as to what is and is not the "real" Islam or who is or is not a real "Muslim"? Is it simply based on rejecting violence? If so, how does the advocation of a jihad in the religious text support peace and tolerance?

a reply to: Xtrozero
And that's great. See if you stand back and let other people take care of their own problems, people start fulfilling their end. We don't have to play superman for the whole world.

originally posted by: Kapusta

...

My question to you is what can we do to be heard ?

Kap.

Start rounding up terrorists (by the thousands) and EXECUTE them...publically charge them for what they are...and EXECUTE them. Simple. Every other culture does this, why not Islam?

Terrorists are not unique to Islam; there are terrorists in every shape and form. However Islam, seemingly in the name of 'tolerance', allows terrorists to exist with immunity more so than any other modern culture.

I'm sorry, I am unsympathetic to the 'what more can we do? crowd. I do not subscribe to the notion that the Islamic culture is doing all it can to eradicate terrorism from its ranks. Society in all the modern world is about 'tolerance', tolerance of women and tolerance of religion...and complete intolerance of terrorism. Fundamental Islam is not.

You say you go to pray at your masjid every day and you hear people speaking out against terrorism. Okay, we can't hear you there. At those same prayers do you hear words of tolerance for other religions, tolerance for women, tolerance for other belief structures...about casting out terrorism for what it is? Step back and be honest with your answer, even if it's only to yourself in the mirror.

The Islamic world is notorious for being tough on crime. Drugs are a perfect example; so it's not like Islam is lax on all crime. Why not terrorism?

Want some traction in the MSM? ...

Start rounding up terrorists from within the ranks of Islam, brand them for what they are...and EXECUTE them!

THEN...and only then...will Islam have the favorable attention of the world.

a reply to: enlightenedservant
For me, the article reinforces what is, and I guess will always be, the problem. It is all whittles down to what you choose to believe. Whether it relates to the sun in the sky or who you are.

From the time we take our first breath, we are at the mercy of others. Our survival depends on what others provide us in the way of sustenance, shelter and protection. They become our teachers, and imprint on us in ways we will never fully understand and in ways we are not even aware.

Religion is a way that many use to bind all those independent minds and to control them. Sure basic survival will overrule religion, but only until the person no longer feels threatened. The only things you know is what someone else has professed as truth. What you choose to believe becomes your truth. It is when everyone remains rigid in their own truths that the problems begin.

When a person gains enough power and control, all previous truths are forfeit. They will use your truths against you to defeat you and control you. It has always been thus, and we are brainwashed to idolize the noble death. To die for what you believe is not noble, it is conditioning.

IMHO.

originally posted by: noonebutme
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Point taken. But it does not change my opinion that Islam, like all religions under the covers, is a religion of violence and oppression, not of peace. I just had a read of the latest "Dabiq" magazine. :O

This is written by Muslims, for Muslims. It was awful -- the amount of hatred and violence it spouted against those who prefer freedom and democracy.

And the entire document - and I am not exaggerating here - was laced with religious proverbs. Each atrocity or horrible act was backed up by some silly religious quote.

You might say, "That's not the real Islam" or, "They are real Muslims" -- well, who says so? THEY certainly seem to think they are and in fact, call the moderate or "normal" Muslims the "fake" ones. Who makes that call as to what is and is not the "real" Islam or who is or is not a real "Muslim"? Is it simply based on rejecting violence? If so, how does the advocation of a jihad in the religious text support peace and tolerance?

LOL Let's take a step back for a second because I think we're having a misunderstanding here. I'm not trying to convert you to anything & it's completely up to you how you see Islam. If you accept us, then great. If you don't, that's great too. Neither outcome will change my path or my love of my religion, and it seems like my words wouldn't change your opinion anyway, right?

I was simply pointing out that the fearmongering doesn't match the reality. The assertion that 7%, 15-25%, or even 1% of Muslims being extremists simply doesn't match with the number of attacks & threats of attacks. And not only did I use facts, I even listed the formulas I used so you could calculate them for yourself. Of course, that also depends on how they're defining "extremists"; since Turkey counts the Kurdish independence organizations as "extremists" even though the Kurds are fighting ISIS & al-Nusra. And Israel counts Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinian independence groups as "extremists", even though they're fighting against Israel's expansion into their territories.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Kapusta

Fact: If you support Sharia law you are not a moderate Muslim, that is indisputable and a reality of 2015.

I disagree. There's no single form of Shariah Law, so which regions' version are you referring to?

Qur'an 109, Surah al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers), Pickthall translation

1. Say: O disbelievers!
2. I worship not that which ye worship;
3. Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

I follow that, which is why I say "live and let live". Do you really want Muslims to stop following that?

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
I am sorry if my views offend you. I didn't start off with this perspective, I learned it from terrorists.

I guess that means they won.

I am sorry if my views offend you. I didn't start off with this perspective, I learned it from terrorists.

I guess that means they won.

These comments are both good enough to remember.
You're both right.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
I am sorry if my views offend you. I didn't start off with this perspective, I learned it from terrorists.

I guess that means they won.

How do you determine who won and who lost?

Did the people that died on either side win?

Did the destroyed lands, the polluted air, the dead water and animals, win?

Did the next generation of children being raised without mother, fathers, families, win?

I think it should be clear by now that there are no winners.

You have mega history lessons, from all sides and factions, posted all over ATS, with a good portion of them being right here in this thread; yet while history is always used as an excuse for why something may have happened or why someone may think or do something, it seems to rarely change the outcomes, generation after after generation.

So maybe we should stop caring about winning, because it is obvious to me, if to no one else, that winning is a losing game.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Here is just one video there are dozens on YouTube



Note the man carrying the Sharia law sign.
Everybody following this knows Sharia law is radical, even by the most conservative biblical standards followed by Christians.
Even Bill Maher who is so anti-religious made the point months ago comparing the two.
It oppresses people, especially women. As if I would ever want to torture any of the women in my life by making them ware black from head to toe in the blistering heat of summer.

For every response supporting that archaic ideology you make I will post another video, you aren't winning this.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Here is just one video there are dozens on YouTube

Note the man carrying the Sharia law sign.
Everybody following this knows Sharia law is radical, even by the most conservative biblical standards followed by Christians.
Even Bill Maher who is so anti-religious made the point months ago comparing the two.
It oppresses people, especially women. As if I would ever want to torture any of the women in my life by making them ware black from head to toe in the blistering heat of summer.

For every response supporting that archaic ideology you make I will post another video, you aren't winning this.

1.5 BILLION people and you have dozens of videos? LOL That's not even one thousandth of one percent of the Muslims in the world.

Now is it ok for me to show youtube videos showing non-Muslims harassing Muslims? Or should I bring up articles showing that Muslim women are usually the biggest victims of Islamophobia attacks?

Also, you used Bill Maher as an example? That guy is openly Islamophobic. He doesn't even deny that he has a special hatred for Islam. You might as well have quoted Pamela Gellar or Frank Gaffney.

And you didn't answer me. Would you rather Muslims not follow the Surah al-Kafiroon, which I listed in my other post? It's literally one of the first Surahs that Muslims memorize from the Qur'an, since it's one of the shortest. So any Muslims who disobey it are acting against the Qur'an and Islamic law, not according to it. So would you rather Muslims follow it or would you rather Muslims reject it? Because it's literally something God commands us to do, aka, the truest form of Islamic Law.

And note: I don't care about "winning" this or "winning" you over. I didn't make this thread. I've dealt with skinheads & bigots all of my life, though usually because of my skin color. So our nice internet discussion is child's play compared to the incidences I've actually had to "win". And if anything, I've lived by the motto "I'd rather have a true enemy than a false friend". So if you just don't like Islam, say it. It's fine. I'll simply note that I shouldn't take your words seriously anymore.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Xtrozero
And that's great. See if you stand back and let other people take care of their own problems, people start fulfilling their end. We don't have to play superman for the whole world.

I do agree with you, I have spent years of my life in Iraq and Afghanistan, I really do not want to go there again.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

(crickets, crickets...and more crickets)

It's always silence on this response...ALWAYS!!! Why????

edit...BTW, I applaud you for standing up and being proud of you and who you are. I don't direct my statements at you, personally. You asked a question, and I attempted to answer it. Every religion has evils in its ranks. Catholics are not exempt, what with pedophile priests and the lot. However, terrorists "kill" innocent people in the name of fear. They must be eradicated, because a culture of fear is good for none of mankind. None.

Numbers don't matter; what matters is heart and morals.

Fear for the sake of fear knows no bounds of heart, and certainly not morals.

Hate is wrong, but terror is orders of magnitude worse than hate.

Hate is an emotion; terrorism is doing something about it!

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Islamic military jurisprudence refers to what has been accepted in Sharia (Islamic law) and Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) by Ulama (Islamic scholars) as the correct Islamic manner which is expected to be obeyed by Muslims in times of war.Some scholars and Muslim religious figures claim that armed struggle based on Islamic principles is referred to as the Lesser jihad.

Many Muslims feel they are at war with the west for various reasons, some currently moderate, can be radicalized quite easily. Many feel there is a justifiable Jihad required under Sharia law, I am not saying you do, but moderates that say nothing either way, because deep down they support it, but won't do it, aren't helping your cause.

Islam needs reformation just like Christianity did, 16th century style.
Sharia law to Islam is like what the 14th century Catholic church dogma was to Christianity.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
LOL Let's take a step back for a second because I think we're having a misunderstanding here. I'm not trying to convert you to anything & it's completely up to you how you see Islam. If you accept us, then great. If you don't, that's great too. Neither outcome will change my path or my love of my religion, and it seems like my words wouldn't change your opinion anyway, right?

No I know you're not. I was still trying to argue the point that regardless of the fact you're a normal, decent person, there are many in the exact same religion, following the exact same book, but use violence and murder as a means of propagating Allah's "good word".

I was simply pointing out that the fearmongering doesn't match the reality. The assertion that 7%, 15-25%, or even 1% of Muslims being extremists simply doesn't match with the number of attacks & threats of attacks.

But recorded attacks and threats are not directly related to the number of radical islamists. You could have 100million muslims in the world who believe I and every other non-muslim should BE muslim, follow Sharia Law and live under a caliphate but haven't (thankfully) attacked anyone. Just because they haven't actually performed violence doesn't mean they aren't radical.

And I would argue that the fearmondering does match the reality. If any of these numbers are correct we keep batting about, we're still looking at almost 100million people who maintain a view that the rest of us non-believers MUST believe.

a reply to: Kapusta

i respect what you are trying to do however ,you hear these fanatics preach hate you sit in your own homes around the world and celebrate the murder of jews , so how can i trust you when you might say these attacks are despicable at work yet in the mosque you celebrate , unless tolerant muslims speak out and start dobbing in the hate preachers there will be no trust , i hate no 1 any attack on innocents is terrible and i watch even the saudi goverment or should i say corrupt kingdom jail 2 princes that spoke out about human rights for women , when the home of mecca refuses to accept any refugees yet will , not send any help to those afffected besides the offer of building a mosque on foreign soil . this is how people get paranoid ,like i said i have no hate but when he richest muslims offer no help to stop this virus insulting islam what should i think .