Signature of The Creator. The Torah contains an ancient embedded "Security Code".

a reply to: vethumanbeing

What are you talking about?

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: vethumanbeing

What are you talking about?

Moses did not write/invent the Book of Genesis.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

And you know this how?

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: vethumanbeing

And you know this how?

Through Gnosis; just a thought pattern that tells an idea regarding truth.

a reply to: dashen

'Moses did not write the Torah' -

You wrote QUOTE ' and you know this how?'...UNQUOTE

Here are a few facts from the so-called internal evidence inside the Torah which show that 'Mosheh' could not have possibly penned the Torah as we have it to-day, but that most of the contents date from the time of Ezra (c. 440 BCE) long after the time of 'Mosheh'- moreover there are at least 5 distinct writing styles in the Torah which show that the collection was written by several different persons rather than one person.

Today, the majority of scholars agree that the Torah's composition took place over centuries. In addition, modern scholars point out that there is no evidence that Hebrews were even able to write (as semi nomads they had no written language - so they had to steal, or more politely 'borrow' the Phoenecian 'horned' aleph-beth from the Canaanite Phoenecians some time around 1050BCE, nor is there any hard evidence of written Hebrew literature of any kind prior to the 11th Century BCE.

•The Edomite kings listed in Genesis 36 did not live until after Moses was dead
•Moses is referred to in the 3rd person in several passages and no where in the text does he say he wrote the '5 books'
•There are places named that Moses could not have possibly known or were not in existence until much later than the time of Moses
•The Hebrew of the text includes technical terms that were developed long after Moses' death
•Moses' own death is included in Deuteronomy without a break in Hebrew writing style we see throughout the book and lists a number of events that occurred after his death. [The rabbis of the Talmudic era did believe that, since he was a prophet, Moses wrote the Torah himself - up to the last eight verses and preserves a rabbinical dispute about whether Moses wrote those last verses describing Moses’ death, burial and legacy - or whether they were written by his successor, Joshua (tractate Bava Batra, 14b-15a) - but this is just another conjectural fantasy of the Rebbes]
•Camels are listed in Abraham's retinue, but camels were not domesticated until around 1000BCE , long after Abraham (1550 BCE) and even Moses (1250 BCE)
•The text mentions 'Philistines' in the time between Abraham and Moses, but the Philistines did not enter the coastal areas of Canaan until around 1200 BCE (after Moses) judging from the pottery dating and other evidence.
•The text says, "At that time the Canaanites were in the land" (Gen 12:6), which implies the author writes in a time when they were no longer there -- but they were clearly there when Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan after Moses' death.
•Statements such as "before any king ruled over the Israelites" (Gen 36:31) imply a time in the writer's mind when kings had ruled over the Israelites -- but none ever did in Moses' lifetime.

Other details have been noticed as well. Certain parts of the Torah use words for places and things that are different from other parts. For instance, some stories (Exodus 3, 17, and 31; Deuteronomy everywhere but once) used "Horeb" as the name for the mountain where Moses receives the Law, while other parts of the story (Exodus 16, 19, 31, 34; Leviticus and Numbers throughout; and Deuteronomy 33) use the name "Sinai". The style of the Horeb writer (E) is distinct from the Hebrew style of the Sinai writer (P).

Also, the entire story of Moses is narrated from third-person omniscient perspective, treating him just like the rest of the characters. That too suggests that Moses was not the author. Take for example the verse: “Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth” (Numbers 12:3). In Deuteronomy 34, the writer says, "There never arose another prophet in Israel like Moses." It didn't seem to make sense that Moses' himself could pen such words since they are written 'in hindsight' as if the events had long past to say nothing of them being grossly egocentric in the extreme - which flies in the face of his alleged 'humility' in Numbers 12. One could also say that the 'humblest man on earth' would not himself go around saying that he was the humblest man on earth !

There are also a number of contradictions of details which betray a combination of separate sources e.g. Genesis chapter 1 compared to Genesis chapter 2:4b to 4:26 where there are two creation myths that do not match up when compared line by line (order of creation, method of creation, and names for the divine).

One could also add the fact that the 1st chapter of Genesis (for a quick look) is written in the late Hebrew style of the prophet Hezekiel (not a pre-Exilic document, but one replete with Babylonian loan-words after 587 BCE) and that the entire Book of Deuteronomy is written in the Hebraic style of the prophet Jeremiah (c. 560 BCE), long after the time of 'Mosheh'...also the Book of Joshua is written by the same scribes who penned Deuteronomy (it continues the narrative in the same late Hebrew style of expression and vocabulary, syntax, grammar, word-order and Weltanschauung).

Consider the rudiments of the Documentary Hypothesis I(JEPD) - vastly supported by modern mainstream academia (read 'The Pentateuch' in the Anchor Bible Series by Blenkinsopp for a quick layman's introduction) which outlines a number of additional reasons why Ezra was more of the author of the Torah than Mosheh ever was (also check out Who Wrote the Bible? By Richard Elliott Friedman, a student of the great Hebraist Frank Moore Cross of Harvard - and also Friedman's book 'Commentary on the Torah' - these are all very readable books for the common layman who may not be privy to the academic researches over the past 160 years or so into the subject of 'Mosaic Authorship' - the idea that 'Moses' wrote the entire Pentateuch, which is no longer tenable.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Was king Hezekiah also a fictional character?

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: Sigismundus

Was king Hezekiah also a fictional character?

So many; (you have no idea) as cannot be claimed as true non-fiction filigrees.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

King Hezekiah s seal discovered in Jerusalem

Silly king, leaving his stamp laying around. Didnt anyone tell him hes fictional

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: vethumanbeing
toKing Hezekiah s seal discovered in Jerusalem

Silly king, leaving his stamp laying around. Didnt anyone tell him hes fictional

Silly person: Joseph of Aramathiea, (of the two hills); took Jesus as his Godchild to India and Bristol (he the rich tin merchant) that could tell of the lost years.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Moses name is on the Torah as its author. Noone else in history has ever claimed otherwise till very recently.
There are no "various writing styles".
Something any gradeschool age child who is fluent in hebrew could tell you.
the camel theroy is thoroughly disproved by the Archaeological evidence
.
the Philistines were tribal before they founded large city states and lack of evidence is not proof anything.
.
Ezra lived on the Heels of the Rule of Yehoyachin. The last king of Judah. The Torah and jewish people already existed for quite some time at that point.
Your theory is preposterous on the face of it.
how do you propose he sold a fake history to millions of his own people and subjected them to very oppressive laws. No bacon dude.
No fornication.
no cheeseburgers.


The fact that we cant find much evidence of civs that were burned to ashes and then torched again should be no surprise.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Never heard of josephs seal being discovered in a contemporary archaeological dig

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Never heard of josephs seal being discovered in a contemporary archaeological dig

James Cameron; Director of (Avatar) (Titanic) documented; filmed and funded this archival dig. The documentary "RESURRECTION TOMB" has disappeared. The premise was Jesus's bone box was discovered in this (Joseph of Aramethiea's family) tomb under an apartment complex in Jerusalem between the two hills as was Josephs namesake (between two hills).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

It was tampered with right. They took a guys bone box and added a name later

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: vethumanbeing

It was tampered with right. They took a guys bone box and added a name later

JESUS/son of Joseph with the sign of the FISH christos (laughable I know).

a reply to: dashen

Thanks for that! I had no idea Pi and Requieum for a Dream were made by the same guy! Darren Aronofsky, I will have to check out all his movies!

a reply to: Sigismundus

I don't mean to impose but there may be suggestive evidence that at least some early Hebrew's from the time of the wandering in the desert before they came back and took the land of Canaan which the lord had bequeathed to them may have been literate, we know that the Egyptian's may have had several script's other than the hieroglyph's and a later one we know of today as Demotic script.

At a site which is growing in fame
called Har Karkoum there are a number of rock glyph's including a depiction of the two tablet's of the Ten Commandment's dated to at least 4500 years of age or earlier, for me this is not the mountain were Moshe received the ten commandment's but rather one of the site's the Israelites wandered and encamped during those year's of hardening and refining in the desert.

Though no script is present it does suggest that while the majority of the wanderer's may have been illiterate some were most probably very literate and we can surmise that the tablets though used as the symbol did indeed have writing upon them and of course Moshe did not write it did he.

youtu.be...


But for me the site of the mountain were Moshe received the ten commandments is were a man called Ron Wyatte claimed it was, this guy followed his faith and gut and listened with his heart to what the Lord told him in his faith.

www.ronwyatt.com...

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: dashen

'Moses did not write the Torah' -

Were you there to see who did?
Can you EVEN READ HEBREW?

You wrote QUOTE ' and you know this how?'...UNQUOTE


Here are a few facts from the so-called internal evidence inside the Torah which show that 'Mosheh' could not have possibly penned the Torah as we have it to-day, but that most of the contents date from the time of Ezra (c. 440 BCE) long after the time of 'Mosheh'- moreover there are at least 5 distinct writing styles in the Torah which show that the collection was written by several different persons rather than one person.

There are NO DISTINCT WRITING STYLES, if you had the Hebrew reading comprehension of a sixth grader you would know that without having to rely on some professor with some BS theory to tell you otherwise.
WHich contents do you claim come from EZRA?
Why is EZRA not mentioned once in the TORAH?
if he was the author why not take credit for it?
The Hebrew of Ezras time was noticeably different from Moses time, and your theory is totally incongruent with reality.
Oh, and for t he fifth time, can you even read HEBREW?

Today, the majority of scholars agree that the Torah's composition took place over centuries. In addition, modern scholars point out that there is no evidence that Hebrews were even able to write (as semi nomads they had no written language - so they had to steal, or more politely 'borrow' the Phoenecian 'horned' aleph-beth from the Canaanite Phoenecians some time around 1050BCE, nor is there any hard evidence of written Hebrew literature of any kind prior to the 11th Century BCE.

You act as if every scrap of paper in history is at the disposal of science.
The Israelite Civilization was destroyed and burnt over and over again throughout history.
torah scrolls were written on vellum, which does not exactly fare well over the millenia.
And HERE is some HARD SCIENCE which calls your BS assertions into question.

•The Edomite kings listed in Genesis 36 did not live until after Moses was dead

There is no way to possibly know that a nomadic tribe did or didnt exist at a particular time in ancient antiquity. (no cities, legal documents, treaties)

•Moses is referred to in the 3rd person in several passages and no where in the text does he say he wrote the '5 books'
•There are places named that Moses could not have possibly known or were not in existence until much later than the time of Moses
•The Hebrew of the text includes technical terms that were developed long after Moses' death

Bob Dole speaks in the third person all the time.
You cant know what or what wasnt in existence because of the major gaps in the archeological record
Please describe these so called technical terms

•Camels are listed in Abraham's retinue, but camels were not domesticated until around 1000BCE , long after Abraham (1550 BCE) and even Moses (1250 BCE)

But this claim again is false.
As evidenced by many recent archeological discoveries

•The text mentions 'Philistines' in the time between Abraham and Moses, but the Philistines did not enter the coastal areas of Canaan until around 1200 BCE (after Moses) judging from the pottery dating and other evidence.

AGAIN, lack of evidence of a small nomadic tribe is not surprising

•Statements such as "before any king ruled over the Israelites" (Gen 36:31) imply a time in the writer's mind when kings had ruled over the Israelites -- but none ever did in Moses' lifetime.

Moses was considered King of Israel

Other details have been noticed as well. Certain parts of the Torah use words for places and things that are different from other parts. For instance, some stories (Exodus 3, 17, and 31; Deuteronomy everywhere but once) used "Horeb" as the name for the mountain where Moses receives the Law, while other parts of the story (Exodus 16, 19, 31, 34; Leviticus and Numbers throughout; and Deuteronomy 33) use the name "Sinai". The style of the Horeb writer (E) is distinct from the Hebrew style of the Sinai writer (P).

Mount Sinai has many names. as do many things in the Torah.
Har HaElohim
Har Bashan
Har Gebnunim
Har Horeb

Also, the entire story of Moses is narrated from third-person omniscient perspective, treating him just like the rest of the characters. That too suggests that Moses was not the author. Take for example the verse: “Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth” (Numbers 12:3). In Deuteronomy 34, the writer says, "There never arose another prophet in Israel like Moses." It didn't seem to make sense that Moses' himself could pen such words since they are written 'in hindsight' as if the events had long past to say nothing of them being grossly egocentric in the extreme - which flies in the face of his alleged 'humility' in Numbers 12. One could also say that the 'humblest man on earth' would not himself go around saying that he was the humblest man on earth !

According to tradition Moses wasnt the AUTHOR in the traditional sense. He was merely the scribe, Teacher and transmitter.
The tradition states that he was dictated the text letter by letter, and he wrote them down when commanded over the 40 years in the desert.

One could also add the fact that the 1st chapter of Genesis (for a quick look) is written in the late Hebrew style of the prophet Hezekiel (not a pre-Exilic document, but one replete with Babylonian loan-words after 587 BCE) and that the entire Book of Deuteronomy is written in the Hebraic style of the prophet Jeremiah (c. 560 BCE), long after the time of 'Mosheh'...also the Book of Joshua is written by the same scribes who penned Deuteronomy (it continues the narrative in the same late Hebrew style of expression and vocabulary, syntax, grammar, word-order and Weltanschauung).

Thats FALSE, if you would have ever read Ezekiel and Genesis in the ORIGINAL HEBREW (I have, have you?) you would never say such a silly thing

Question...

Man... goes to school... then to college... a pricy one... comes home... seeks funder... And gets his PhD... And His funds.. then travels to Egypt... to document a story about where the frogs... locusts... gnats.. And blight came from. Conclusion was a "Volcano!"

Do I do well for myself in believing him... ????????????

BTW: there was nothing holy about Moses.... He was a GANGSTER of the highest order.

a reply to: Pinocchio
Question.
What are you smoking and may I have some?
The Egyptian plagues are only a small portion of a part of a book.
explain how Moses ,who led approximately 1.2 million slaves out of one of the most oppressive societies in history which would make Hitler's Germany look like Club Med is a gangster
The rest are instructions for life morality how to set up court systems prophecies for the future and some natural facts witch to this date are perplexing in their accuracy and foresight

originally posted by: Pinocchio


BTW: there was nothing holy about Moses.... He was a GANGSTER of the highest order.

Indeed! And he worked for a GANGSTER of the highest order....

So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."'"

24Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death. 25Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and threw it at Moses' feet, and she said, "You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me."…

Exodus 4:23-25

Meh, The Torah is like a Navajo rug. The pattern is exquisite, but the picture portrayed, which can only be appreciated from afar, and what the pattern and its subtle color changes reflect, is nothing more than the weaver's artistic and fantastical whim.