Black/Urban English? Is the inability to speak correctly contributeing to unemployment?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I agree that slang as a second language is a positive job skill. I WAS a police officer and was kind of a chameleon. When I was dealing with uptight, rich white people I was much more official and proper. When I was in the ghetto I was throwin' slang right along with them.

But...

I had the ability to switch the slang off. If you want slang as a second language, great. But when it's the only thing you know, that is a problem.

originally posted by: mikemars261
a reply to: MrCrow

Perhaps the "Urban English" is more sophisticated and more intelligent than "proper" English. Perhaps the reason is the ability to say more with less, or the ability to make a statement without being harassed not at what was said, but how it was said. Am I right OP? OP was trying make a statement and most replies focused on how the statement was made, and not the statement itself. Perhaps "proper" English is slowing us down.

I was taking a statement from a guy and needed his address. "4121 Jamilla" Excuse me, what? "4121 Jamilla" What is the street name again? "Jamilla" Do you spell that j-a-m-i-l ... He interrupts, "No! Jamilla. J-I-M M-I-L-L-E-R." He lived on Jim Miller street. It took literally, at least 5 whole minutes to 'translate' his 'urban english'.

More sophisticated? Seriously?

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

But it's so much clearer ...

The apologists are doing mental gymnastics.

Being part of the new generation, I know what one of the sources/problem is.

People are simply "2cool4school".

The majority of students who go to an urban school never pay attention to class and the lessons taught. Reading is a thing for nerds, and so is learning. Being cool is all about using your cell phone and being on social media, listening to rap and pop music, & simply speaking cool.

The majority (who are dumb) always tend to be separated by the minority (who are smart).

& when you try to correct them in order to get them to speak properly, or understand specific terms the way they actually are, they simply call you a smart ass and get mad. Sometimes they threaten you...
Basically being smart is more of a bad and annoying thing to them. They take it as if you are being too literal.

Ok I'm not sure if everyone is just oblivious to this or not, but just in case, let's review a little history. The people you are talking about had great-grand parents born into insanely cruel slavery and were told what to do all their lives. Perhaps strong slang is an indicator of stronger bias towards counter culture, as everyone here keeps repeating like parrots. I, for one, can't really blame them for not wanting to follow by the rules. No offense to any of you, I am only indirectly accusing your great grand parents of participating in slavery and not outright saying it. Honestly though, I'm right there with them.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It may be a debate team, but that wasn't a debate. Right before the 1:06 mark the guy on the left performed a rap song. Throwing 'nigga' around freely.

The lady on the right is actually well spoken. I think she was attempting a poetry/prose piece...she just REALLY rushed it. She was nervous, I'm sure. I used to compete with poetry and prose readings, you really need a coach to help you overcome stuff like that. Rushing, mispronunciation, throwing in 'uh's and 'um's...that's not ignorance, just a normal reaction to nerves.

a reply to: mikemars261

O god the slavery excuse.........


And it is just a excuse.

It was abolished over 250 years ago get over it.

This is 2015! Nothing is stopping you (at least in the UK) working hard and being successful.

If your going to adopt a counter culture that negatively effects your job and career prospects its your own dam fault if you end up trapped in poverty.
Your only enslaveing yourself and have yourself to blame. Not whitey, not the establishment, not racism, just yourselves.

Worse you are just reinforceing negative stereotypes and impacting those in the black community that do want to work hard, succeed and integrate with those around them.

originally posted by: mikemars261
I, for one, can't really blame them for not wanting to follow by the rules. No offense to any of you, I am only indirectly accusing your great grand parents of participating in slavery and not outright saying it. Honestly though, I'm right there with them.

OK, so you're saying this (slang usage) is now a non-white thing? White's are just the same. And, as for not following rules, well, if you don't do that, you don't get employed.

Edit: clarity - "slang usage"

a reply to: crazyewok

Ok this is a bit more advanced than either of you can handle. I would explain further but it'd be like opening a can of worms, and quite frankly I don't have the patients to explain to you this natural phenomena that occurs timelessly and globally. I can't help you, I'm sorry.

a reply to: mikemars261

So people who speak with less variety in their vocabulary and use profanity to describe everything are basically more sophisticated than people who have larger vocabularies and can describe things more precisely and use proper pronunciations?

Not buying it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
So people who speak with less variety in their vocabulary and use profanity to describe everything are basically more sophisticated than people who have larger vocabularies and can describe things more precisely and use proper pronunciations?

Effin A sister.

a reply to: mikemars261

As it's clearly been stated: this phenomenon exists across the board. No one is picking on black people.

And to say, "I can be anti-establishment now because my ancestors 8 GENERATIONS AGO suffered injustice." ....ridiculous. If you go far enough back everyone's ancestors have suffered at some point. If they (of any color) want to interact with urban culture and throw out urban slang...that's great....but if they want to interact with the rest of the world, ie get a job, they have GOT to know the basics of English.

originally posted by: mikemars261
a reply to: crazyewok

Ok this is a bit more advanced than either of you can handle. I would explain further but it'd be like opening a can of worms, and quite frankly I don't have the patients to explain to you this natural phenomena that occurs timelessly and globally. I can't help you, I'm sorry.

It's patience, not patients. See, you're trying to describe the length of your tolerance....but you end up talking about sick people. English!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: NihilistSanta

And there is also the issue of volume control. A cultured person does not speak loudly. But for the poorest among us, speaking loudly is part of who you are.

Why else do you think Europeans specifically love to denigrate Americans as loud and obnoxious? Being loud is a mark of your social class. What they are really doing is insulting our low-class natures.

Personally, because I'm hearing-impaired, I like it when people speak loudly. But speaking loud doesn't help me at all if I can't UNDERSTAND what they're saying. Street speech/slang makes me miserable.

a reply to: mikemars261

I would beg to differ with you on one key aspect of what you have just said.

There is no way for someone to have the exact same conversation as me, unless they utilise the entire breadth of the English language in the doing of it. The simple fact of the matter is that a reduced pool of words, grammatical devices, and phraseology prevents a person from being able to converse on a level with me, on a great plethora of topics.

Nuance, subtlety, context, a full and comprehensive understanding of these things allows for a depth of communication which is UTTERLY impossible without that understanding. Scientific discussion requires accurate understanding of terminology, and precise, nuanced language in order for a valuable and interesting exploration of the topic to come to pass.

Let us, for a moment, look upon the matter of street speak, in the same way as we look at the Klingon language from Star Trek. Although quite a few science fiction buffs can speak some Klingon, what few people realise is that although the Klingon language has words for things like disruptor pistol, knife, sword, photon torpedo and so on, it has no words for normal things, like automobiles, banking services, payroll department, or street maps. There is nothing wrong therefore with learning the language, but there is something wrong with using it in the wrong context, and/or company.

Without nuance and understanding of vocabulary of a high standard, certain concepts cannot even be grasped, and discussions of merit on topics pertaining to those concepts are impossible therefore.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Hi TrueBrit, good response and I'm as passionate about the beauty of our language as you clearly are. Thing is though, language is never static, it develops sometimes to become more complex, sometimes less - Bill Bryson has written a couple of excellent books in this area and I would recommend Mother Tongue if you haven't read it.

Actually, a lot of this is subjective, when I write 'lose', some people write 'loose' for the same definition. If someone in England isn't bothered about something, they couldn't care less whereas an American could care less - makes no sense to say that if you pick apart what you are actually saying, but there you go. Aluminum is actually closer to how the word should be written than Aluminium, but we English like to stick to our metaphorical guns. The examples go on and on.

I wouldn't like to guess what the common parlance will be in a couple of hundred years and if our antiquated ears would be able to understand it.

a reply to: crazyewok

"You're suffocating initiative and intelligence."

Irony.

Yep, dose momas und popas av a lut two anser four, I meeen like doncha?

a reply to: crazyewok

woot ya say´aii . . aint no



worddd

worldddswtaarrr

a reply to: uncommitted

Indeed, language changes, this is true. However, it is upon those of us remaining in possession of a significant vocabulary, to ensure that the language we love for its versatility and accuracy, is not dumbed down to the point where it cannot be used by the population, to achieve the goals set by that population.

When my great, great, great, great grandparents were walking the world, it was not at all uncommon for a person to have only the grasp of the language, or for that matter the education in general, that they specifically needed, to operate the station they had attained for themselves in life. But that was still in an age where one was, largely speaking, born into the position they would retain for the rest of their days, a time when social mobility was a concept for future generations to consider, an amusing notion to be discussed in theory by the select few who had the grasp of language necessary to be able to vocalise the concept in a concise fashion.

Education becoming common place changed all that, and placed knowledge in amongst communities whose members had been prevented from accessing it, by the lowness of their birth, or the emptiness of their pockets, or both. Now, information is a gift that a man or woman of any station, can pass to his or her children, and an education for all children is the product of battles, literal battles to ensure that the working people could educate their children in arithmetic, in reading and writing, and in other things besides. This was what lead rise to true social mobility, and to freedom from an iron clad fate.

To allow our language to backslide, so that once again it becomes the norm for individuals in low paid jobs to have a vocabulary which is limited by their trade, for those people to have children who will never learn anything, and therefore become as immobile as their parents socially... People fought their whole lives, generations of them, to promote balance and fairness, the distribution of education amongst all the social classes, and these people deserve our respect and our appreciation. My ancestors fought for better lives for all of us, more freedom, less oppression, more information and less ignorance. The efforts of some among us to dumb down, to turn up their nose at that gift, a gift fought for so hard, and by so many, are an affront to everything I believe as a working class person, and are an affront to those whose lives have been spent in our service.

Of course, concepts such as these are not easily grasped by those who lack the linguistic experience necessary to understand the English language, as an understanding of history requires a certain familiarity with language, and even very old uses of the language. Which rather makes my point. If you cannot even read history, you are doomed to repeat it.