As it was in the beginning...

a reply to: Marduk

the planet underwent a cataclysm which resulted in survivors starting from scratch. so yeah, it would look primitive for the most part, but just enough of them knew the sciences to create these anomalies like ancient egyptians building complex structures while nearby nations were quite primitive. the idea of the copper age and so forth is bunkum, as you can find civs even today, that are still very primitive in function, whilst others are sending satellites and rovers, exploring other planets.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Marduk

the planet underwent a cataclysm which resulted in survivors starting from scratch. so yeah, it would look like primitive for the most part, but just enough of them knew the sciences to create these anomalies like ancient egyptians building complex structures while nearby nations were quite primitive. the idea of the copper age and so forth is bunkum, as you can find civs even today, that are still very primitive in function, whilst others are sending satellites and rovers, exploring other planets.

Err, no, you want to believe Sitchin so much that your value as a researcher is negligible.

Try to remember, that real research is done from sources that have taken the time to actually study the culture, not from people who have taken the time to be journalists

a reply to: Marduk

but i have studied it and i do know the adam was from a word that meant living in the steppe. and according to the sumerian kings list, who was the first king? (p.s. and if you want to get technical, it meant habitation)

ham, a son of noah, migrated to egypt. his name is khem. the people of khem/ham, are the khemetians. he took the same info to egypt, that you find in sumerian-akkadian texts. over time, language and cultural variants, gave the data its own twist but there it is, larger than life: Atum, the creator god of egypt. it's the same exact story, with some cultural drift and spelling variants.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

you might enjoy this guy's research

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Marduk

according to the sumerian kings list, who was the first king? .

It wasn't adam...

originally posted by: undo
ham, a son of noah, migrated to egypt. his name is khem. the people of khem/ham, are the khemetians. he took the same info to egypt, that you find in sumerian-akkadian texts. over time, language and cultural variants, gave the data its own twist but there it is, larger than life: Atum, the creator god of egypt. it's the same exact story, with some cultural drift and spelling variants.

The story of Noah is derived from various Sumerian flood stories, Ham doesn't exist in them, you know that surely, but you still allow credulous sources to sway your research, sad

Even if I pretend that the Great flood of Noah happened the way that the bible claims, it is dated to 2348 BCE, so Ham is too late to found Egypt by about 700 years, though I'm sure that's no problem for your sources which seem to ignore the facts wherever possible

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Kantzveldt

you might enjoy this guy's research

pointless, this was one of his lectures where he was saying that 2012 would be the end of the world
laughable that you think any of this is relevant now, especially as David Flynn is dead... 2012 was only the end of his world

a reply to: undo

But what you linked to didn't mention anything about Adam, there's no reason why an article on Dumuzi would, it was interesting in linking to a section on Dumuzi as Amaushumgalana which is on topic;

Dumuzi-Amaushumgalana, in Mesopotamian religion, Sumerian deity especially popular in the southern orchard regions and later in the central steppe area. He was the young bridegroom of the goddess Inanna , a fertility figure sometimes called the Lady of the Date Clusters. As such, he represented the power of growth and new life in the date palm. In Uruk, the marriage of Dumuzi-Amaushumgalana to Inanna, in her role as goddess of the storehouse, was essentially a harvest festival, symbolizing the security the community felt after laying in provisions for the new year, just as a young couple finds security in marriage.

There is also an early astrological context to the Lady of the Date Palm, it represented the constellation Cancer, on the Indus valley seal below we see the sign for Virgo in the furrow, the same as for Sumer, then we see the sign for Leo as a tiger, and then the crazy Lady in the tree offering the tiger dates, as Cancer, followed by Gemini.



I mean maybe one could get the tree in the garden of Eden from that but is it really so important to always try and rip off other cultures to justify Hebrew myth...?

On this example we see from the left Pisces-Aires-Taurus-Gemini, all of course before written tradition in that region.

Kantzveldt , Are you aware that modern Hindu astrology is derived from Hellenistic sources and that the Vedic text on astrology the "Vedanga Jyotisha" dates from 700BCE. It was superseded by Greek teaching 300 years later. This is why Leo is a lion, the Greeks came up with that deviation from the Mesopotamian depiction of Leo as a dog...



So it went like this
invented by Chaldea 1000BCE
Vedic astrology attested 700BCE, later abandoned
Chaldean astrology transmitted to the Greeks 400BCE
Chaldean astrology transmitted to the Hindus after 400BCE

any claims you are making here about finding Leo the lion in Harappan seals predating 400BCE are actually depicting Lions, not Leo...


Maybe you should start looking at seals with Dogs
[

*lighthearted break*

Katz, I dreamed about your avatar the other night! I was walking with my niece (age 10) and your avatar was walking towards us. She got scared and hid behind me. I said "it's okay, I know her".

Lol!

a reply to: Marduk

Its especially interesting when looking for clues as to the original dates for the Zodiac because the San people of Africa left cave paintings of the 4 fixed signs of the zodiac well over 20,000 ago. These signs are reiterated in Ezekiel's chariot with its four wheels with Taurus - Bull, Leo - lion, Scorpio which could also be depicted as the phoenix but usually the scorpion and Aquarius - the man or water carrier. The world used the zodiac as a mark of time, the only things that really differed were due to location and what animals etc were there - the Incan Zodiac has different animals and depictions to the Indian one.

To have measured the Great year which takes over 25,000 years for the zodiac to return to its 'original' places in the cosmos the measurements taken by men must have been going on for at least 25,000 years. With the oral traditions existing before writing we can't be sure when exactly the zodiac was first conceived and used.

Its one of the mysteries that would be fascinating to unfold.

a reply to: Marduk

In the Indus seals i suggested they show Leo as a tiger not a Lion, makes more sense right...?



I wouldn't for one minute accept that astrological tradition begins when someone writes a treatise on it, i've studied Mesopotamian seals showing constellations from the Jemdat Nasr period, the Indus valley seals show constellations, there are astrological references in Sumerian literature predating any Babylonian treatise, the later written works only serve to provide confirmation.

There is a Mesopotamian dog constellation beneath Canis Major associated with Gula but Leo could also be referred to as ‘Mul Ur Gu-la’, but you shouldn't really be confusing the two.

In earlier texts the Lion is usually called ‘Mul Ur-mah’ – the ‘Exalted Lion’, but from the middle of the 2nd millennium its name is usually written ‘Mul Ur Gu-la’

Babylonian Leo


a reply to: angeldoll

Maybe i need to change my avatar...

a reply to: Kantzveldt


What, No! It fits you perfectly! (last interruption I promise)

originally posted by: Shiloh7
Its one of the mysteries that would be fascinating to unfold.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

I wouldn't for one minute accept that astrological tradition begins when someone writes a treatise on it, i've studied Mesopotamian seals showing constellations from the Jemdat Nasr period,

You are both confusing astrology with the Zodiac
Astrology has been around a long time, originally used for omen foretelling, until they discovered that examining a goats liver was more accurate.
The Zodiac has been around since around 600BCE and knowledge of the Zodiac indicates knowledge of precession,
The two things are not the same

Here for instance you can see the Sumerian new year marker constellation "The Pleiades" indicating that the event depicted (the Akitu festival) takes place in feb/march, the second was during October when Scorpio is prominent

I'm pretty sure you are familiar with this seal, which is why I'm using it.
It shows Venus in the Pleiades
which in real life looked like this

The view is of a portion of the western sky as seen from Baghdad during the early evening

a reply to: Kantzveldt

here's the relevant section.

The name Tammuz seems to have been derived from the Akkadian form Tammuzi, based on early Sumerian Damu-zid,

tammuz is a later form of dumuzid, also spelled Damu-zid. damu is adam

a reply to: Marduk

Not really, the Indus seals appear to show constellations according to the zodiac system of 12 constellations, it doesn't require any knowledge of precession to divide the ecliptic into 12 sectors, you would simply have observed the progression of the signs relative to the horizon, of course over time it is expected that the effects of precession will be observed but that's not the same as figuring out the celestial mechanics as the Greeks did.

As seen you could also divide the ecliptic into 27 sectors as per lunar houses, the 12 sector division was based upon the movements of Jupiter around the ecliptic as well as relating to the lunar month, there was also an obscure tradition of tenfold division according to the movements of Venus, none of these require pre-knowledge of precession.

Whichever way you divide the ecliptic plane it's always going to be the case that the oldest astrological traditions were concerned with key stars and asterisms at important points upon the horizon relative to the seasons in terms of developing traditions in conjunction with role identification and narrative in terms of the greater context.

The ecliptic pathway in the Mul Apin is of course the Path of the Moon which travels through the zodiac constellations.

a reply to: undo

Damu is that little swine you see there above Capricorn, modern Delphinus.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

To be honest, it seems like standard esoterica for a culture with a base 6 mathematical system to find special providence in numbers like 360, or any number evenly divided into it.

In fact, the more frequency that numbers related to 6 arise, the more convinced they likely became in the value of their esoterica.

I think the Sumerians used the Assyrians and Sargon same story as Moses, the Assyrians didnt assimilate the Sumerians, the Sumerians were a priest class who used the Assyrians and their primitive outlook towards nomadic warlord, this is 4000 BC.
Sumerians came from Indus Valley.

THIS IS A THEORY NOT FACT, SO I GAVE A LITTLE THEORY ABOUT SUMERIANS PLEASE CONTINUE! sry for caps.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

Not really, the Indus seals appear to show constellations according to the zodiac system of 12 constellations,

Or alternatively, you are culturally diffusing your knowledge of astrology with their culture
They put a crab and a goat on a cylinder seal and you see Cancer and Aries
They put a cow on a seal and you see Taurus
That doesn't make it so...
so unless you can also translate the words on the seals to prove your case, I don't think you have anything here but cultural diffusion. Sorry

a reply to: Marduk

I see a rainbow called the Navagraha and the Celestial bodies of our solarsystem with a almost non moving body of Saturn which makes season predictions a lot easier now please continue

a reply to: Marduk

Perhaps what you see as the beginning was rather more the beginning of the end, when your man writes the big Babylonian compendium on astrological identifications and pathways that sort of puts a fix on what had been an ongoing oral tradition of received wisdom and tradition, it seemed to take all the fun out of things, and there is no subsequent development of tradition, only reappraisals of the past and religious movements derivative of ancient paradigms.


a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The Base 60 thing was dedicated to the High God Anu and that was very good for divisions of time and space, but other Deities had their given numbers, 60 - Anu, 50 -Enlil, 40 - Ea/Enki, 30 - Nanna/Suen, 20 - Utu/Shamash, 15 - Inanna/Ishtar, 10 - Ishkur/Adad, were the sum total is 225 or 15 squared and the number of days in a Venusian year...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

Perhaps what you see as the beginning was rather more the beginning of the end, when your man writes the big Babylonian compendium on astrological identifications and pathways that sort of puts a fix on what had been an ongoing oral tradition of received wisdom and tradition, it seemed to take all the fun out of things, and there is no subsequent development of tradition, only reappraisals of the past and religious movements derivative of ancient paradigms.

Yeah, that's possible, but the Greeks developed the MUL APIN and discovered precession because their math was superior to Chaldeas. The Chaldeans I don't think knew what precession was, their astronomy developed out of Astrology which was only ever used for omen foretelling. They gave it up in favour of Baratu which was far more accurate
When you consult a written oracle as with astrology, you just get the written answer, but when you include a diviner, you are adding human intuition to the mix.
So did they notice precession, possibly, but I don't think they cared much about it as the use they were putting their astrological knowledge to was pretty frivolous