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If "Jesus" Was "sinless" Why Do All 4 Gospels Depict His Baptism By John ?

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posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:16 PM
Why was 'Jesus" Baptised? This is a thorny question which has plagued all the various Christianities from the beginning and still haunts them to this day.

But it is a basic question regarding the purported 'divinity' and 'omniscience' of Rabbi Yehoshua bar-Yosef, the Galilean Nazir ( "Jesus" = Gk. ho Iesous) - since ALL FOUR of the gospels state emphatically that he was baptized by Yohanon the Baptist...and there's no squirming out of answering the question which boils down to this : If "Jesus" was "sinless" then WHY was he BAPTISED by John in the Yordan ?

Perhaps the answer lies in the practice of ritual baptism practiced among 1st century Jews and/or sacrificing in the Temple 'for sins of ignorance' i.e. sinning without realizing it consciously...but that would imply that ho Iesous was not all-knowing.

Here are some excerpts from the NT :

Mark 1:9 "Around that time Jesus came down from Nazareth in Galilee to be baptized by John in the Jordan..."

Luke 3:21 'And all the people in the area came to John to be baptized; and Iesous too came to be baptized [by John]..."

Matthew 3:13 -16 'And Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Jesus replied, “Let it be done this time; for it is proper for us to do this to compleat every act of righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened...

John 1:26-34 places some weird words into the mouth of John the Baptist (NB: notice the contradiction about the 'lamb of EL" being recognized by the Baptist by comparing the 4th gospel with Matthew 11:3 or Luke 7:19 "And John sent disciples to Iesous saying, our Rabbi wants to know, are you the one to come ? or shall we search for another?")

26 "I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know.
27 He is the one who comes after me ..." 28 This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'
31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

Any takers?

33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

edit on 9/26/2015 by semperfortis because: Corrected all CAPS

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:20 PM
Isn't being Human a sin?

And his mother being human makes him at least half human- unless apologetics would claim she was just a receptable!

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:28 PM
a reply to: Milah

So god is of sin ?

Whats strange to me is that the act of sinning (murder ) was used to cleans the world (men,woman ) of sin ?

makes no SINS to me

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:34 PM
Personally I think it is because it ruins the image of Jesus being a magic god man, who is just better then everyone else because he was born that way.

Personally I believe Jesus was just a human like the rest of of us and when he was baptized the reason the heavens opened, the dove;a sign of the holy spirit appeared, and a voice proclaimed him the son of God is because that was the moment he became that.

That view creates a problem for the church that wants to worship Jesus as a mystical super hero and not as blueprint or example of what all humans are capable of and are spiritually. It takes the power from the church and returns it to the people.

Of course then you have Jesus himself saying in the bible it is not him doing any of the things he did, but the father working through him and that all those who follow him, live their life like him and develop the faith he had would also be able to do those things; perform miracles, etc.

The idea of the virgin birth and him being sinless, creates a division, it tells people you can't be like Jesus, he was born special, so don't try, just come to church pay your tithes and we will handle it.

It also opens the door to other people like Jesus, ie people filled with the holy spirit and that ruins the monopoly of the church.

I also think the virgin birth was a later addition. You see the same thing in Buddhism, the oldest stories say that Buddha was just a man, a prince but a man and was not really special at all spiritually until he left the palace and sought enlightenment. Later you have the additions of stories making his birth miraculous though, saying he was born with a full set of teeth and could talk immediately and etc.

And lastly the necessity for a virgin birth to be born sinless is more of a christian invention anyway, because in Judaism children are incapable of sinning until they are old enough for their bar or bat - mistzvah.

That is just my opinion though.

edit on 26-9-2015 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typos

edit on 26-9-2015 by prisoneronashipoffools because: addition

edit on 26-9-2015 by prisoneronashipoffools because: addition

edit on 26-9-2015 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:36 PM
Apologetics would probably argue Jesus was 'conceived' without Sin and thus being born human, yet not in sin.

So a cloned human or a parthenogenic human embryo would be without Sin?

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:51 PM
a reply to: Sigismundus

Jesus was sinless and had no need of repentance. Even John was taken aback at Jesus’ coming to him. John recognized his own sin and was aware that he, a sinful man in need of repentance himself, was unfit to baptize the spotless Lamb of God: “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

There are several reasons why it was fitting for John to baptize Jesus at the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry. Jesus was about to embark on His great work, and it was appropriate that He be recognized publicly by His forerunner. John was the “voice crying in the wilderness” prophesied by Isaiah, calling people to repentance in preparation for their Messiah (Isaiah 40:3). By baptizing Him, John was declaring to all that here was the One they had been waiting for, the Son of God, the One he had predicted would baptize “with the Holy Spirit and fire” (Matthew 3:11).

Jesus’ baptism also showed that He identified with sinners. His baptism symbolized the sinners’ baptism into the righteousness of Christ, dying with Him and rising free from sin and able to walk in the newness of life. His perfect righteousness would fulfill all the requirements of the Law for sinners who could never hope to do so on their own. When John hesitated to baptize the sinless Son of God, Jesus replied that it was proper to “fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). By this He alluded to the righteousness that He provides to all who come to Him to exchange their sin for His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In addition, Jesus’ coming to John showed His approval of John's baptism, bearing witness to it, that it was from heaven and approved by God. This would be important in the future when others would begin to doubt John’s authority, particularly after his arrest by Herod (Matthew 14:3-11).

It also depicts the work of the Father, Son, and Spirit in the salvation of those Jesus came to save. The Father loves the elect from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4); He sends His Son to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10); and the Spirit convicts of sin (John 16:8) and draws the believer to the Father through the Son. All the glorious truth of the mercy of God through Jesus Christ is on display at His baptism.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 04:57 PM
a reply to: prisoneronashipoffools

Good stuff...there is also the thorny question regarding the sinlessness of "Iesous" found in Mark 10:18

"And a man runs up to him and falling on his knees said, Good Rabbi (Heb. Moreh-Tov), what must I do to inherit eternal life? But Iesous says to him Why do you call me good? NO ONE IS GOOD (Heb. Tov) --except EL alone."

Matthew wrestled with this idea when he wrote: 'Why do you ask me about that which is good? Only God is good..."

But Mark represents an earlier form of the saying, and is supported by the 'criterion of embarrassment' which states that if an embarrassing event is linked to Iesous (Baptism, Riot in the temple, Crucifixion, Empty Tomb, Losing his temper, Betrayal on the hill, Talking back to his own mother, etc.) those episods are thought to be more reliable 'historically speaking...' i.e. not made up to glorify their god-man.

in other words, the criterion of embarrassment is a critical analysis of historical accounts in which accounts embarrassing to the author are presumed to be true because the author would have no reason to invent an embarrassing account about himself. Biblical scholars have used this criterion in assessing whether the accounts of Jesus' actions and words are historically probable

The Criterion of Embarrassment is met quite fully in the 4 gospel accounts of the baptism by John which was designed for the remission of sins, according to the texts in front of us.

edit on 26-9-2015 by Sigismundus because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:00 PM
a reply to: Sigismundus
To my knowledge, Jesus wasn't sinless.
He was 'born without sin', due to the immaculate conception of his mother, Mary.
He did sin in his life after he was born, so he was not sinless.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:02 PM

originally posted by: Milah
Apologetics would probably argue Jesus was 'conceived' without Sin and thus being born human, yet not in sin.

So a cloned human or a parthenogenic human embryo would be without Sin?

A cloned human body without the Spirit would be just as corrupted as every other human being.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:03 PM
What caused him to sin after birth, being human?

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:07 PM

originally posted by: Milah
What caused him to sin after birth, being human?

Yes. I think it is a quality that all humans have.
He was human, after all.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:10 PM

originally posted by: Milah
What caused him to sin after birth, being human?

Yes, Sin is human nature since the Garden.

The "Golden Rule" of this corrupted earth is now "Serve thyself". Self serving interests and gratification is the "Law Of Nature" in this world. Without the Spirit of God within us (our soul), we would be nothing but Self serving corrupted flesh.

Only the true Spirit of God could be sinless on this world. For everyone else, it is impossible.
edit on 26-9-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:12 PM
Funny You should ask this OP, I had the same question not long ago to my good friend who is more or less Christian (as much as a scientist can be
) .The answer was simple (and it actually convinced me ). Baptism serves two purposes (at least it did in the old days), the first one is the cleansing of the eternal sin. The second less known is that baptism is also considered a way to join a religious/spiritual community (not only Christian). Jesus was joining Johns religious community and one of the acts of him being accepted was being baptized. So this ceremony had nothing to do with the eternal sin

edit on 26/9/15 by Thill because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:13 PM

originally posted by: Sigismundus
If "Jesus" was "sinless" then WHY was he BAPTISED by John in the Yordan ?

Back in the old days evil spirits would take possession of the human bodies. Men and spirits both share the same atmosphere, made up of 21% Oxygen and 78% Nitrogen. Men usually can't see the spirits. But, the spirits can see men. They both breathe in the air and exhale back stuff. Men take in the oxygen and expel carbon dioxide. Spirits take in Nitrogen and expel back De-energized nitrogen. As long as a man is standing on the surface of the earth, a spirit could invade his body, and "share" resources like mind and muscle. The man using the oxygen from the air, and the spirits using the nitrogen. So, they can co-exist just fine together as one. If a man went under the water, however, and held his breath, the spirit couldn't breathe. So, dunking the man in water, completely submerging the body, which is the correct way to baptize, caused the spirit to jump out of the body, to avoid suffocating, and free the man.

At that point the man is cleansed of the hanging on spirits.

But, after being out of the water awhile, the spirits would return, and re-possess the man. So, this ritual was just reminder of how to rid oneself of sin, to use water to clean oneself. A sinful thought attracts sinful spirits, which come and attach like leaches to the body of the man who sins, and help to promote more sinning of the same nature. Like attracting drinking buddies, sinners attract other entities that like that type of taste. They come and encourage the repetition of the behavior.

Before the "pure spirit" of Christ would take up residence in the human body of Jesus, his earthly body was cleansed by the usual water ritual to drive off any malicious hanging on spirits. Right after the water cleanse, the holy spirit enters the man, and takes up residence. Then we get Jesus Christ. Man and holy spirit walking together. God and man as one. The body of a man is mostly "water". The body of a spirit is mostly "fire." John baptized with water, and Jesus baptized with fire. Before Jesus could baptize with fire, however, he needed to be cleansed with water, so that the spirit could enter and grant him the power to baptize with fire.

Baptizing with fire causes transformation. While water "cleans", fire "transforms". Baptism with water "restores" the man to what he was naturally before the "helpful sinning spirits" attached themselves to him. He is not sinless, just free from the extra weight contributed by his new "friends". Baptism with fire, on the other hand, transforms the man, removing his sinful nature, so that the old co-habiting "friends" wouldn't be able to return.

Baptism with water, is like taking away the bottle, from the drunk. Baptism with fire is like taking away the desire to drink instead, so whether or not the bottle is there, doesn't matter anymore. It helps, however, to first take the bottle, then wean the man off the desire.

That's one way to look at the mystery.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:20 PM
a reply to: AMPTAH
Who allowed you to just give away vital mystery knowledge for free?

edit on 26-9-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:29 PM
Jesus is the only man who became gods almighty son.

Jesus is the only human to of (apparently) lived, and able to wash away all sins of man, regardless of history, geography, belief, ethnicity.

Jesus is the only human to die and ressurect.

He also is the only person I've heard of who can catch fish for villages, and turn water into wine.

Therefore Jesus is invalid. Please try again later.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 05:40 PM
a reply to: Sigismundus

This is gonna sound weird coming from an atheist but I don't see how this is a problem for Christianity, maybe for fundamentalists but that's about it.

It might well have been a symbolic act. According to the Gospels John started his ministry first and people had the wild idea that John was the reincarnation of Elijah who, according to Jewish legend, never died but was taken up to Heaven. So by going to John Jesus could start his ministry off by being baptized by someone who already had street cred so-to-speak.

Jesus also frequently submits himself to authority throughout the Gospels, he's usually a pacifist (driving out the Temple traders with a whip notwithstanding) and he even washes the feet of the disciple. At times Jesus shows his humility and in being Baptized it's about humility to God.

Now also keep in mind that when the Gospels were written, at least the synoptic Gospels, there was still tension within Christianity as to whether Jesus was equal to God or fully human or some combination. There was a ton of variety in the beliefs at the time but our four big surviving canonical Gospels, with the exception of the latest Gospel John (written between 90-110 CE) , don't ever explicitly call Jesus God and I don't believe they actually ever say Jesus was sinless either.

So if I were still a Christian I would not find this a big deal at all.

Also keep in mind that some sects believed that Jesus was not God's son until the baptism. Mark, the earliest Gospel, starts with Jesus already as an adult receiving the blessing of God at his baptism.

I'll agree that for hardcore fundamentalists this might be a slight issue but more because it shows Jesus being subservient to God, imploring God to bless him. There's plenty of ways for them to interpret this problem away though, by just saying that Jesus was showing his followers how they should treat God with reverence and follow the commandments and be baptized and be humble by doing it himself.

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 06:17 PM
a reply to: Sigismundus

"Born into sin", or Original Sin is a Christian concept that didn't exist during Jesus' time.

Jesus Christ may have been born immaculately, like Adam and Eve were, without any influence of sin, but like Adam and his family, he, as well as all of us, are charged to "master sin", which is exactly what Jesus Christ is said to have accomplished.

Genesis 4:7
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Jesus "mastered" sin immediately AFTER his baptism, in the dessert, when he was tempted by Satan. His temptation alone was "sin crouching at the door", but he MASTERED it. Jesus also taught that we must gain mastery over the sins of temptation as well as sins in actions.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So, no. Jesus wasn't a biblical character that was "sinless" by nature, he was a biblical character that had gained mastery over sin.

edit on 26-9-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 06:39 PM
I think Christ was baptized as a fulfillment or a sign for John the Baptist to whom the Christ was.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

edit on 26-9-2015 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2015 @ 06:50 PM

originally posted by: windword

Genesis 4:7
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Here are the same verse in the preserved Bible. But what winword does is make it Jesus but it is not, it is Cain and Cain alone. Winword is good a twisting his bible, he does not know the scriptures as he would have you think.

you will notice the version he quotes has added words to the original and thereby changes the meaning.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. AV Bible

We are not born into original sin. the original sin was Adams choice not to obey God. So sin was handed down to us in our DNA after that.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

So Death comes to us all because of sin but unlike the sin we got through Adam which we have no choice and given to everyone. The free gift by grace is a choice we can and must make or we can't have it.

edit on 26-9-2015 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)

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