Is Islam the Solution to the West's Deep Internal Malaise?

a reply to: Drest

Why would I want to embrace a religion known for authoritarianism to escape encroaching authoritarianism? No thanks. I place Islam right up there with Christianity in religions that I just find unpleasant. Mostly because of how its worshipers tend to behave.

Besides, I don't have any problem with the direction society is moving. I love my life can see the bright side in things.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: Drest

How about some answers especially to the questions raised by Mortisflash - every one relevant to people looking at islam and rejecting it because of its attitudes to these unhealthy and bigoted practices

The OP won't do that.

If detail behind these theological "my society is better" statements is added then it will expose the lie.

The OP is quick to point out that Western society is hedonistic, probably because the liberation of women is viewed as a bad thing in many Muslim communities - women being second class. The detail behind the statement reveals a sordid misogyny supported by some words written 15 centuries ago. Words that will never change, thus stifling societal progress.

originally posted by: DrestYou,...with a masturbation addiction.

I mean you no disrespect, but with comments like these, speak for yourself pal.

a reply to: Drest

Turkey is not a theocracy, predominately Muslim,
but not a theocracy.
It is NOT ruled by Muslim law entirely as you wish for the US and say is optimal.

Morraco is not a theocracy either, it is a constitutional monarchy,
like the UK, the religion is predominately Muslim, but it is not a theocracy.
So we can check those two countries off your list
of acceptable countries that are under Muslim theocracy.

Algeria is the #1 country for human trafficking/slavery.
www.gvnet.com...
So if that is your example of a good Muslim country
and how the US would look under Islam,
I suppose a good US would include returning
black people to slavery? You say no,
but then you say every country has slavery
of some form or another,
what would stop the reinstitution of slavery in the US,
how would you stop it?
When we have clearly seen the rise in slavery
in countries who are Islamic theocracies.

You say YOU don't agree with executing apostates,
but it is the law under Muslim theocracy,
when Muslim rule is the law and where ever Islam is the law.
It may not be enforced in all Muslim theocracies, but it is the law.

The same with killing homosexuals for just being homosexual,
you may not like it,
but there is not a single Muslim theocracy
that does not have in its laws a homosexual
can be killed just for being homosexual.
It may not be enforced in all Muslim theocracies,
but no one is sanctioned for killing a homosexual in these countries.
How would you stop this from happening in the US,
under your Utopia, when it happens in all Muslim theocracies?

When Islam is put into practice as a theocracy,
these things have followed in every instance.
How do you think YOU could prevent this from happening
in your Utopia when everywhere Islam is the full law
that these things have happened.

Look at Iran, look at pictures when the Shah was in power,
women were free and not chattel.
Theocracy of Islam came into being
and now women are no more than chattel and
the property of males to be treated
and disposed of as they wish with impunity.
How will YOU stop that from happening,
when you yourself said earlier that
women will get used to and submit to the Muslim ways?

Any rational person looks to the actions and results
of Muslim theocracy.
It is not pretty, it is quite ugly.
As I said earlier, communism looks fabulous on paper,
but is horrific and makes 90% of the people suffer in many ways.

Your theocracy looks good on paper,
but when put into practice has the most horrific results
we have seen in the modern world.
How do you think you could stop that?
You can't, when these horrific results
have occurred everywhere an Islamic theocracy has been implemented.

a reply to: grandmakdw


open selling of female slaves on the streets of a Muslim Theocracy




The restraining of a child in a Muslim Theocracy (Syria)
watching her parents die for apostasy.



Homosexuals in a Muslim Theocracy


This woman was raped and this is how a Muslim Theocracy treated the victim.

These pictures are a Muslim Theocracy in action,
what really happens when Islam is the law of the land,
this is the reality of what you are proposing.

How would you stop these things from happening
when where Muslim Theocracy is a reality
this nearly always results?

a reply to: paraphi

Ha Ha! He seems to have 'popped orf' doesn't he/she whatever.

a reply to: Drest

Your absolutism is amusing.

In a less tolerant land, you know one possessed by those possessed by ONE creed, we wold merely lop off those hands for typing this tripe. Stoning in the village square. Taking your head for having such outrageous principles.

You know acting like many Muslim dominated countries.

The fact is ALL religions are based on what mortals have said. Because god talked to them but only those who seem nuts to the non-religious, such as me.

I mean to say, schizophrenic balderdash is the fundament of these faiths.

To allow you to breathe in what I consider sane: Do not hold to believe, faith or opinion. Instead use positions on subjects that you have researched. Wanting to believe that you have a relationship with a god is moronic.

God is not your buddy. He (if he exists) does not care about you anymore than Caribbean Cruise Lines cares about a single barnacle. You are on a ride that you do not control and your input is not appreciated. At best you are a drag on progress and subject to being removed when there are too many of you (us). You (We) have little value to the Captain, his crew, passengers or Corporate Board.

You are as soil trodden by beings who never look down.

Also the Allah and his prophet story was just another means to seek control over a bunch of savages. Sometimes that is not a bad thing. While being an agnostic, I am not an anarchist. Basing a control system on systematized BS is not my preference. I prefer clever humanist approaches as opposed to bling 'em and blind 'em methods to assist us in making sense of a day to day existence.

Besides your version of god totally sucks to my rampaging self. You guys like to bow to superiors, yet you never learn of your hubris. Humility without true function. Your god needs to be constantly propped up. Pretty weak soup in a world looking for stew. So to support him and show he ain't nobody to mess with, you cause harm to his non-supporters. The more active the greater your butthurt and the more violent you get. Because your god can't stand up for himself. He needs his warriors to go all jihad as he is portrayed in unflattering terms.

If your god was worth a nickel, he would take care of it himself, if he thought it was so FREAKING important.

Know why he doesn't? Of course not, because he does whatever HE WANTS. He doesn't need somebody riding shotgun on that stage. He's freaking John Wayne with an eyepatch or he is an accountant with an eyeshade. The one thing he is, NOT your buddy. If he was how could we lowly, long suffered (and suffering) sorts would have been eliminated.

Ask yourself, why do so many not agree with you when you got the almighty (and a billion other dolts) signed up for supremacy?

As a suggestion: Because you are wrong about yourselves and what a god really means.

If you choose a god who is feckless and needs to be feared, you are choosing (at best) the wrong god.

Thinking that more prayer, religious fasting, group hugathons and stonings and singing loudly somehow empowers you strikes me as a pathetic barnacle hoping not to be mistaken for an oyster if he just plays along with the rest of bio-mat.

You do not think yourself as being cowards but in reality you FEAR being judged after death much more than you fear being dicks here. You are not good neighbors.

originally posted by: Drest
Besides, it's exceedingly difficult to reply to these kinds of extremist viewpoints. When someone is so indoctrinated by this extremist Western secular ideology, there's not much point arguing. It becomes a circular affair.

Ah, glad you are back.

Can you add some detail to the OP. In supplanting the secular, liberal West with an Islamic ideology, can you say what will happen to women? Will women be treated equally in e.g. education and other life-chances to men? Are able to show a good example in any Islamic nation where women have any semblance of equality to men?

Go on, persuade my wife that Islam will benefit her.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Drest
Besides, it's exceedingly difficult to reply to these kinds of extremist viewpoints. When someone is so indoctrinated by this extremist Western secular ideology, there's not much point arguing. It becomes a circular affair.

Ah, glad you are back.

Can you add some detail to the OP. In supplanting the secular, liberal West with an Islamic ideology, can you say what will happen to women? Will women be treated equally in e.g. education and other life-chances to men? Are able to show a good example in any Islamic nation where women have any semblance of equality to men?

Go on, persuade my wife that Islam will benefit her.

The question he can not answer is

how are women currently treated in the many Muslim theocracies?
ARE they given equal treatment in education and other life chances
ARE they given any semblance of equality to men.

He will give a pie in the sky flowery answer to you, but neglect
what is happening currently in the many countries that
are his Utopia of an Islamic Theocracy.

Pie in the sky is not reality,
look to what is on the ground happening
really happening in the many current Islamic Theocracies.
That is where the answer will be truly found.

He implies I am a hysterical extremist for challenging him
to look at where Islamic Theocracies exist and showing
us that they would be free of
female discrimination and basically cloistered living
homosexual discrimination
discrimination against those who choose to leave the faith.
This type of real life challenge he thinks is extreme, I think
it is down to earth and the most relevant question of all.

Until places like Saudi Arabia and Algeria and other Muslim countries
end slavery - no one can honestly believe that a new Islamic Theocracy will be
any different.

Until the majority of Muslim Theocracies end the
isolation of women
end the keeping and treating women as chattel
- no one can honestly believe a new Islamic Theocracy
will be any different.

Until all Islamic Theocracies end the death penalty
for homosexuality and for unbelief -
no one can honestly believe that a new Islamic Theocracy
will be any different.

The real proof of a gentler and kinder society
run by Islamic Theocracy is for one to actually
exist among the many Islamic Theocracies that
exist today - and there is not one -
all evidence is against what the OP
thinks can happen.

originally posted by: Drest
All of you, oblivious to your own myopic hypocrisy.

Islam isn't any better. Say what you will but the proof is in the trail of destruction, desolation and disrespect for life. It is a religion of death. Everything in it pertaining to this life is about what happens after death, after you have died for your faith.

Observe:
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Drest
Besides, it's exceedingly difficult to reply to these kinds of extremist viewpoints. When someone is so indoctrinated by this extremist Western secular ideology, there's not much point arguing. It becomes a circular affair.

Ah, glad you are back.

Can you add some detail to the OP. In supplanting the secular, liberal West with an Islamic ideology, can you say what will happen to women? Will women be treated equally in e.g. education and other life-chances to men? Are able to show a good example in any Islamic nation where women have any semblance of equality to men?

Go on, persuade my wife that Islam will benefit her.

How about..... seperate but equal? Women are different from men, but it doesn't mean they can't be treated equally in many regards. Same opportunities for education and (most) employment, but in a family setting, it need be acknowledged that women have different duties. As it has always been, and as it should be. I've seen too many young guys grow up without a strong father figure, or a domineering mother who takes on the role of "man of the house". They never turn out quite right, often lacking the same sense of duty and obligation that comes from being raised in a traditional household.

To grandma: you jumped the gun like everyone has been doing. I'm not advocating theocracy and never was. Above all, I'm promoting certain positive aspects of Islamic culture. That's all.

originally posted by: Jekka

originally posted by: Drest
All of you, oblivious to your own myopic hypocrisy.

Islam isn't any better. Say what you will but the proof is in the trail of destruction, desolation and disrespect for life. It is a religion of death. Everything in it pertaining to this life is about what happens after death, after you have died for your faith.

Observe:
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Just like how many around the world view the United States and many Western countries.

The proof is in the trail of destruction, desolation, and disrespect for life.

originally posted by: Drest

originally posted by: Jekka

originally posted by: Drest
All of you, oblivious to your own myopic hypocrisy.

Islam isn't any better. Say what you will but the proof is in the trail of destruction, desolation and disrespect for life. It is a religion of death. Everything in it pertaining to this life is about what happens after death, after you have died for your faith.

Observe:
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Just like how many around the world view the United States and many Western countries.

The proof is in the trail of destruction, desolation, and disrespect for life.

Actually, despite the United States' bloody history, they still don't kill people for leaving. I'm not a big fan of the US myself but instituting a national religion, regardless of what it is is not the answer. You seem to be among the few relatively level headed people of Islamic faith, but surely you can't really believe that inserting a religion which has become corrupt and awful in other countries into an already corrupt country would fix it. You can't put out a fire with gasoline. I say this because the Islamic faith, like gasoline, can be inert but an abundance of heat (in this case corruption) or a spark (corrupt individual) can ignite it into something dangerous. Islam isn't my thing, glad you've got a thing, but the entire reason there are multiple religions in this world is that not everyone can decide on the same thing and forcing the many to follow the few won't make it ok. To those of a like mind, being forced into membership of a specific faith is a welcomed idea but to those who disagree it would be nothing more in their minds than slavery. If everyone who was a part of Islam was in love with the idea, the concern over and punishment of apostasy would never have had to be recorded. Just some food for thought.

originally posted by: Drest

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Drest
Besides, it's exceedingly difficult to reply to these kinds of extremist viewpoints. When someone is so indoctrinated by this extremist Western secular ideology, there's not much point arguing. It becomes a circular affair.

Ah, glad you are back.

Can you add some detail to the OP. In supplanting the secular, liberal West with an Islamic ideology, can you say what will happen to women? Will women be treated equally in e.g. education and other life-chances to men? Are able to show a good example in any Islamic nation where women have any semblance of equality to men?

Go on, persuade my wife that Islam will benefit her.

How about..... seperate but equal? Women are different from men, but it doesn't mean they can't be treated equally in many regards. Same opportunities for education and (most) employment, but in a family setting, it need be acknowledged that women have different duties. As it has always been, and as it should be. I've seen too many young guys grow up without a strong father figure, or a domineering mother who takes on the role of "man of the house". They never turn out quite right, often lacking the same sense of duty and obligation that comes from being raised in a traditional household.

To grandma: you jumped the gun like everyone has been doing. I'm not advocating theocracy and never was. Above all, I'm promoting certain positive aspects of Islamic culture. That's all.

Well, right now the fruit of Islam
that is what it actually does and actually is
can be seen quite clearly in all of the
Middle Eastern Islamic Theocracies.
These countries are run entirely on the
word of the Koran.
What the world sees is rotten fruit,
all of it, entirely.
The last time Islam bore good fruit
was with mathematics.
But within the past 20 years,
the fruit has spoiled and no
sane person wants to eat it.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Drest

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Drest
Besides, it's exceedingly difficult to reply to these kinds of extremist viewpoints. When someone is so indoctrinated by this extremist Western secular ideology, there's not much point arguing. It becomes a circular affair.

Ah, glad you are back.

Can you add some detail to the OP. In supplanting the secular, liberal West with an Islamic ideology, can you say what will happen to women? Will women be treated equally in e.g. education and other life-chances to men? Are able to show a good example in any Islamic nation where women have any semblance of equality to men?

Go on, persuade my wife that Islam will benefit her.

How about..... seperate but equal? Women are different from men, but it doesn't mean they can't be treated equally in many regards. Same opportunities for education and (most) employment, but in a family setting, it need be acknowledged that women have different duties. As it has always been, and as it should be. I've seen too many young guys grow up without a strong father figure, or a domineering mother who takes on the role of "man of the house". They never turn out quite right, often lacking the same sense of duty and obligation that comes from being raised in a traditional household.

To grandma: you jumped the gun like everyone has been doing. I'm not advocating theocracy and never was. Above all, I'm promoting certain positive aspects of Islamic culture. That's all.

The last time Islam bore good fruit
was with mathematics.

Actually, Islam had nothing to do with the Algebraic concept of zero. It simply occupied a country that had the concept and claimed it as its own as it did with the other discoveries attributed to it and that's where the credit went when history was recorded.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Well, right now the fruit of Islam
that is what it actually does and actually is
can be seen quite clearly in all of the
Middle Eastern Islamic Theocracies.

These countries are run entirely on the
word of the Koran.
What the world sees is rotten fruit,
all of it, entirely.

So, may I ask you a question, grandmakdw?

a reply to: Drest

If you don't make an effort to understand my side, why should I give yours the time of day? You expect my to waste my own time addressing every little knee-jerk? Not a chance. Come back to me when you can debate without going into a miniature hissy fit because I offend your precious sensibilities.

Whoa.
Dude.

I might have missed it, but, what country do you live in?

What does your "side" have to offer, exactly?

...and for some reason, there is no issue of westerners immigrating to hard-line Muslim countries to 'escape' the non-virtues of the amorphous state of western society...

Address this 'malaise'.

Å99

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Well, right now the fruit of Islam
that is what it actually does and actually is
can be seen quite clearly in all of the
Middle Eastern Islamic Theocracies.

These countries are run entirely on the
word of the Koran.
What the world sees is rotten fruit,
all of it, entirely.

So, may I ask you a question, grandmakdw?

You may PM me a question any time you want if the question is not directly related to the OP. That is always permissible under T&C. If you ask on the thread and it is thread drift, I will not answer, FYI.