What's your opinion of marrying for citizenship?

In my opinion, practically everyone marries for selfish reasons:

He/she makes me happy = selfish reason

He/she is beautiful = selfish reason

He/she is talented = selfish reason

He/she is smart = selfish reason

He/she loves me = selfish reason

He/she is successful = selfish reason

He/she is rich = selfish reason

He/she comes from a good family = selfish reason

Etc. etc.

I think that marrying for citizenship is just another selfish reason to get married.

Who can say with any certainty that one selfish reason is better or worse than another?

All of the above is "all other things being equal." I'm not talking about lying, cheating, or stealing to get the person you want to marry you.

I'm just saying that if the most important factor in choosing a potential spouse is their citizenship (because one wants to become a citizen of a particular country), I don't see why it's any worse than any other selfish reasons.

a reply to: Profusion

I have obviously been marrying for the wrong reasons.
Love.
Guess why I have three failed ones.
In the UK it is illegal and quite a few get caught and done.

a reply to: Profusion

I married because I love her with all of my heart, always have and always will. I am more in love today than yesterday. She feels the same way and we tell each other every day. My life would be incomplete without her and our 2 awesome kids are further testament to that.

IMO, the institution of marriage should be between 2 individuals who love each other.

Not - me no love you long time, marry me so I can be citizen la.

Stereotyping, I know, but you get the point.

One has ZERO to do with what the institution of marriage is about in the modern era - love. Yes, yes, in yester-year it was arranged and all about bloodlines and marrying into the right family etc - but we have moved beyond that to - 2 people in love wanting to formally solidify their relationship.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Profusion

I have obviously been marrying for the wrong reasons.
Love.
Guess why I have three failed ones.
In the UK it is illegal and quite a few get caught and done.

In my experience, love can be selfless but it rarely is. I've found that why most people like "love" (however they define that) is because it's like a drug that makes them feel high. Wanting to feel that high is a sefish thing in my experience.

You mentioned that marrying for citizenship is illegal in the UK, maybe I didn't make the following clear enough in my original post:

I'm not talking about lying, cheating, or stealing to get the person you want to marry you.

I could add to that "doing anything illegal."

I also wrote "if the most important factor in choosing a potential spouse is their citizenship"...

Of course almost everyone on earth will consider the citizenship of any potential spouse and consider whether it's a positive, a negative, or a non-factor. Probably for over 99% of marriages, it's a non-factor because the people getting married have the same citizenship.

But, for those cases where it is a factor, how much of a factor citizenship is will depend on many things.

I wonder if under UK law if it would be illegal if 51% of the rationale for a particular marriage was marrying for citizenship? How about 80%? How about 90%?

I have no idea but my understanding is that in order for it be illegal (I only have a very vague understanding of this so please correct me if I'm wrong), 100% of the rationale for the marriage had to be marrying for citizenship. Do you know anything about that?

a reply to: Profusion

I think that it is entirely cynical to suggest that the reasons you have outlined, are the only ones which lead a pair of persons to marry one another.

I would never marry for any of those reasons. Hells bells, I would not even DATE for those reasons. Two people should marry one another when they BOTH gain some emotional, psychological, and spiritual completeness from it. But also they should marry one another because they want to be there for one another, for the rest of their lives and this is not selfishness, but devotion.

As to marrying for citizenship, no, I do not agree with it. If citizenship comes as a very distant and really irrelevant bonus for a couple wedding in honesty, for genuine, heartfelt, soul deep, and physically necessary love, then that is one thing, but marriage should never have an intended outcome beyond the union itself, and the joy that the couple share between themselves.

a reply to: Profusion

To marry for citizenship? it depends on the citizenship, I guess ... but it's ok with me. As long as you make a commitment for that marriage, during that time. If you have the notion that it's "marriage on paper", than no ... marriage on paper, is a wow towards a certain act. The act, to make a home ... together. As long as you stick to this part, with both parties consent. I see no reason to object.

It's wrong and mean in my opinion. I'd be pissed as hell if someone married me just to get their citizenship! That's using someone!

Love is what gets people together, respect is what keeps people together. Marriage for a passport is just sick, and the main reason for it is to bleed the country's social systems, so I see it as a very serious crime .

Not getting married has been one of the best decisions I have ever made.
Oh, I have loved. It just didn't last forever.
Marriage is loving somebody so much that you are willing to bet half of your property on it.

originally posted by: Night Star
It's wrong and mean in my opinion. I'd be pissed as hell if someone married me just to get their citizenship! That's using someone!

I understand that completely. I have first-hand experience with this. I met someone who I liked a lot in a foreign country that wanted to marry me. They admitted that my nationality (and thus a chance for their them to immigrate) was one of the top reasons why they wanted to marry me.

I wasn't hurt or bothered by that at all. It was a perfectly logical rationale for that person in my opinion. We're talking about something that could change everything about their life in every way and from their point of view, all for the better. Who wouldn't think about that and even dream about it? Who wouldn't consider that when considering marriage? I think that's just being human.

Now, that was not the primary reason they liked me or wanted to marry me (supposedly, I'll never know for sure). That person ended up marrying someone with the same citizenship they have and they ended having a happy life. They just considered my citizenship as a huge advantage compared to their other marriage prospects. Putting myself in their shoes, I would have thought the same thing. I think almost anyone would have.

People don't bat an eye when women want to marry men with money. Why is wanting someone with the 'right' citizenship any different than that?

Would you consider any of the other examples of reasons for marriage that I gave in the original post of this thread "wrong and mean"? How about all of them?

In my opinion, if you want to say that some selfish reasons (within reason, other things being equal) are acceptable while others aren't, I can't understand that at all. To me, someone doing that would have to rely on the appeal to tradition logical fallacy and/or the appeal to popularity logical fallacy and/or the appeal to common practice logical fallacy.

Getting married because you love them and they love you is selfish?

Lulz.

You've lost the plot, I'm afraid.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Getting married because you love them and they love you is selfish?

Lulz.

You've lost the plot, I'm afraid.

Getting married because you love them and they love you is selfish?

I didn't write that. This is what I wrote:

He/she loves me = selfish reason

I believe that is a selfish reason if it stands alone without the other part that you mentioned (in other words, both people loving each other).

Please don't add anything to what I wrote. If someone happens to love you (without you loving them back), it is selfish to take advantage of that fact and use their love as a basis to marry them in my opinion.

I've seen people give advice something along these lines, "Only stay in a relationship when the other person loves you regardless of whether you love them."

That's the selfish thing I was talking about.

You misquoted me terribly, maybe I didn't make it clear in the original post.

a reply to: Profusion

You're right, I did misquote you. Apologies.

I will say, however, I've never heard anybody offer the advice of "stay with them because they love you." Not once. Ever.

Hey, as long as both people go into it, knowing the truth about why one is marrying the other, and still agreeing to it.


NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

As it should be with everything.

originally posted by: chiefsmom
Hey, as long as both people go into it, knowing the truth about why one is marrying the other, and still agreeing to it.


NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

As it should be with everything.

I agree. What happens when a beautiful woman marries an ugly old man who happens to be rich? A few women gossip, a few men are jealous, and no one really thinks about it after a while. In the vast majority of cultures in the world, it seems to me that behavior is so engrained into humanity that that is just accepted as "human nature" and "normal."

Now, if a handsome man marries an ugly old woman who happens to rich, there's probably going to be a lot more gossip and hubbub than the previous example. I think that judgmental behavior is wrong myself.

I'll be waiting for someone to explain how marrying for citizenship is different than marrying for money. Now that I think about it, I should have made that the central issue of this thread because it illustrates the point I was really trying to make here.

I can understand why a country would make marrying for citizenship illegal mainly for the following reason:

originally posted by: imod02
Love is what gets people together, respect is what keeps people together. Marriage for a passport is just sick, and the main reason for it is to bleed the country's social systems, so I see it as a very serious crime .

imod02, if you had the power to determine what the law should be on this issue, how would you decide the following:

I wonder if under UK law if it would be illegal if 51% of the rationale for a particular marriage was marrying for citizenship? How about 80%? How about 90%?

I have no idea but my understanding is that in order for it be illegal (I only have a very vague understanding of this so please correct me if I'm wrong), 100% of the rationale for the marriage had to be marrying for citizenship. Do you know anything about that?

The exact significance of the importance of any single factor when it comes to marriage may be impossible to determine even by the person who's getting married.

You're probably aware of the "halo effect" in psychology:

en.wikipedia.org...

A person could convince themselves that citizenship had no effect on their decision. They could believe it to the core of their being. And yet, they could be wrong even about their own mental and psychological state.

Where do you think the line should be drawn in terms of when it would become illegal to marry based on citizenship in your native country?

Should it be illegal if 51% (60%, 70%, 80%, 90% or more) of the rationale for a particular marriage was marrying for citizenship? How would that be determined beyond a reasonable doubt?

I work in immigration law in the UK, this happens so much it's unbelievable. I've had offers from desperate clients to pay me ridiculous sums of money to marry them so they can eventually get citizenship and although it's tempting I can't bring myself to do it.

The main countries it happens in from my experience are Thailand, Russia and Ukraine for foreign wives and Turkey for husbands.

The law on this is actually pretty sensible in some regards as it's made deliberately hard; living together continuously for 5 years to somebody that doesn't particularly like you while you're financially supporting them will break most people and they end up divorcing then going home.

I didn't marry someone for citizenship or money. I married for love with respect and appreciation for that person. Marrying someone for citizenship or money is thoughtless and mean and they are just using the other person for personal gain. Not exactly the type of person I would respect or look up to for any reason.

a reply to: chiefsmom

I'm with you.


Marriage is sacred if you are religious, I appreciate that. I know of a couple who married because the groom wanted to adopt the brides children quickly for legal reasons regarding parental responsibility. They had previously been in a relationship and cared for each other but the adoption was the only reason for the marriage and they separated later. They are both very good parents and are still close friends now. Is this a selfish reason also? My friends had to show they were 'in love' even though they were both being entirely unselfish. The bride wanted stability for her children and the groom agreed entirely.

So tell me, even if this was the right reasons, is it right? Is this a better reason than 'he loves me'?.

The bride and groom in any case are the ones who should question the other parties motives, nobody else!