Children as young as 12 are receiving drugs to prepare them for sex change!

a reply to: Shiloh7

Research has shown that often gender dysphoria disappears after puberty.

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: queenofswords

It's not really worth the risk in my opinion. A transgender person can have a stellar transition (and I mean absolutely flawless) even if they wait until they are 18 (even older sometimes). While it's true that it's easier to correct the hormones (as in undergo hormone therapy) during the onset of puberty, a child can live as the correct gender without treatment and simply wait a few years.

If my child of 12 was transgender, I'd support and make their life as easy as possible and that child would simply be their corrected gender but I'd delay hormonal treatment for a few years unless something made me have a change of heart. It's just too much of a diminishing returns vs risk at that point.

Did you say "corrected"? So when the entire human body is that of a male (for example) and a small portion of that body (the brain) is saying "I want to be female" what exactly is the correction? Usually in treating a human being, you take something small and different from the majority of the person and fix that. Not the other way around.

And regardless...this is a teenager or a child. They know nothing at 12 years old. They don't get tattoos, piercings, they can't drink, vote, etc. Until they are of legal age, any "decision" they make must be gauged by the parents. "I want to be a girl"...OK...how about "I want to smoke pot" or "I want to shoot heroin". Or something less drastic..."I want a tattoo"?

I'm all for adults deciding to make a permanent change to themselves...not my issue nor concern. But (and excuse the language) you won't allow your child to get a tattoo, but cutting off their penis, pumping them full of drugs and getting breast implants is acceptable???? Are you fracking crazy????

What HAS this world come to?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

You have not paid attention to the information. No 12 year olds penis is being lopped off , nor pumped full of drugs to get boobs. Read the thread, educate yourself, then come back and say that, if you do, its a false statement of facts.

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: queenofswords

Sounds like trauma programming to me, maybe the natural next step of mkultra and monarch.

Cheers - Dave

Thanks for that well thought out post. Not hysterical at all.

originally posted by: queenofswords

Most Kids Will Grow Out of Gender Dysphoria

A September 2014 report from the Hastings Center by Jack Drescher and Jack Pula says a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in childhood “does not inevitably continue into adulthood” the majority of the time. The majority of trans kids will not choose to transition as adults.

No one can objectively provide proof that the kids they are treating with hormones are really transgender.

The same physicians who suggest administering cross-gender hormones to kids at age 12 to 14 also say that they have no sure way to identify which kids will become transgender adults. No one can objectively provide proof that the kids they are treating with hormones are really transgender. The entire basis for treatment is what the kids say.

Gender dysphoria has been theorized to be a consequence of differences in the brain, but studies don’t find any. A recent study at the Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden, says; “The present data do not support the notion that brains of male to female transgenders are feminized.” The study could not find a difference in the brains between heterosexual men and that of male to female transsexuals. The brains in trans boys are no different than non-trans boys.
...............
Treating the psychological or psychiatric disorder is the answer, not changing genders.

Read More

Quote from the actual study:

The present study does not support the dogma that MtF-TR have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences in structural volumes, gray, and WM fractions. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).

Source

This is in line with other research from the same institute:

As CfGM kickstarts an innovative seminars series on Gender, Health and Human Rights, a new study published in Journal of Neuroscience found that - in average - the white matter of transgender individuals is distinct from either female and male, hinting to a biological bias for gender identity.

Source

Aside from that, science isn't about proving what is, it's about proving what isn't. In this case, in a trend common in biology and physics etc, the potential truth is turning out be stranger than what we might expect it to be. Proving that a brain isn't 'feminized' doesn't disprove gender dysphoria or prove that it's purely a condition for psychiatry. This is in line with some research results regarding intersexed people's brain structures where conditions have common trends in behavior despite what we might expect from brain structures.

So the truth is probably odder than we expect, not quite as simple as the #sexual community would like it to be, but it certainly doesn't support people who want the simplicity of a gender dichotomy either.

In short, we should spend more time reading the literature before arguing about it because most people are wasting their time.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

Children and young adults until at least 25 should have no access to body mutilation at all, including tattoo's and piercings IMO as their minds are still developing and certainly zero access to even contemplating manipulating their hormones and sex organ surgery under gender dysphoria.

Earnings are a mutilation? I think you are associating a Harsh word to put across a point. Whilst we all parent in different ways, I would not chose to be so harsh with any child or adult under my care. I cant imagine anyone having that level of intense control over human beings, especially ones over 18. Figure they can be handed a gun to go slaughter strangers in a foreign land (or themselves) they can get a tat or a t-shirt after their ride.....

If my kid stupidly gets a tat on her back, and she hates it, lesson learned. I'm not going to cotton wool-handcuff her to stop her making that mistake. I 'm not sure how you can leap from gender identity support for your child to tattoos and piercings.
I'm against such forced parenting controls. Quite frankly who wants their kid around at 25 for to control them at that level. It's not about control overt 18 its about nurture.

I am genuinely laughing at parents around the world balking at society, if like you, it insist they control their offspring til 25.


Good luck with that. I'll stick with nurturing individual development and watching children flourish into the wonderful human beings they want to be, and the best they can be. I'll sleep better at night and so will they.

originally posted by: Annee
You know there's already a couple threads on this.

Hormone blockers are given to M/F Transgender to keep male testesterones from changing the body. From developing "maleness".

Yes 12 --- at the onset of puberty. Hormone blockers have shown no side effects. And the body starts off where it left off if the blockers are discontinued.

What it does is allow the M/F Transgender time to become of age, without the testesterones changes. And then as an adult can proceed or not.

No side effects? Everything has side effects and it is both dishonest and glib to claim that there are zero side effects.

Firstly, even pro-transgender literature admits that this use of medication is "off label" and not FDA approved. They also admit that there is not enough of a sample size to give decent study results.

Delaying puberty certainly can have the obvious side effects in bone structure, bone density, and muscle mass.

In adults, where these medications have had thorough study, these medications can cause a whole host of side effects including osteoporosis, blood clots, joint/bone pain, depression, increased risk of certain cancers, stroke, constipation, etc.

It is irresponsible to claim that this sort of treatment is without risk.

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: Annee

I almost didn't post it because The Federalist turns some people off. But, then I read the article. As they say, don't kill the message just because you don't like the messenger. I try to keep an open mind and read views from various sources.

You say it's slanted....I would be interested to know how so. Are you saying if someone doesn't say just what you want them to say and in words that support your personal ideology, they aren't a valid source? Just asking.

How about a pro-transgender article:

Yet some argue that the physical long-term effects of puberty suppression remain unknown. And this is why some people claim that puberty suppression may not only be inappropriate but potentially abusive. "Puberty does not just change the sexual organs; it also affects brain development, bone and muscle development," wrote Dale O'Leary in an article for MercatorNet. "No one knows all the potential side effects of administering puberty-delaying hormones on children; it constitutes human experimentation."

Some simply question whether an adolescent child is able to give truly informed consent. Others argue that allowing adolescents to suspend their normal puberty development is pushing them along the path of sexual reassignment surgery (SRS), which they will feel compelled to undergo after blocking puberty. One other bioethical argument can be made that GID is a hugely complex condition about which too little is understood. In one instance, a man suffering GID and awaiting SRS was administered female hormones for a number of years, which caused enlargement of his breasts and atrophy of his genitals. After being correctly diagnosed with schizophrenia and medicated properly, he regretted the hormone treatment as he no longer believed he was truly female.

www.medicaldaily.com... sgender-youth-are-puberty-blocking-drugs-appropriate-medical-intervention-247082

Even those who support the idea admit that the treatment is not as benign as activists claim and that the diagnosis and ethics is not as cut and dry as activists claim.

originally posted by: Annee
And here is what I found so far in regards to Trans studies --- Googling Jack Pula. Not a Right Wing Conservative website.

The conclusion of the first study was one we knew anecdotally for several years - that adult trans men and women benefit strongly from the use of puberty-suppressing hormones before being administered cross-gender hormones and undergoing surgical treatment and entering adulthood. www.huffingtonpost.com...

LOL. So the Federalist is pablum that you won't even read and then you link the Huffington post? Irony is ironic.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Are you doctor?

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: queenofswords

Most Kids Will Grow Out of Gender Dysphoria

A September 2014 report from the Hastings Center by Jack Drescher and Jack Pula says a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in childhood “does not inevitably continue into adulthood” the majority of the time. The majority of trans kids will not choose to transition as adults.

No one can objectively provide proof that the kids they are treating with hormones are really transgender.

The same physicians who suggest administering cross-gender hormones to kids at age 12 to 14 also say that they have no sure way to identify which kids will become transgender adults. No one can objectively provide proof that the kids they are treating with hormones are really transgender. The entire basis for treatment is what the kids say.

Gender dysphoria has been theorized to be a consequence of differences in the brain, but studies don’t find any. A recent study at the Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden, says; “The present data do not support the notion that brains of male to female transgenders are feminized.” The study could not find a difference in the brains between heterosexual men and that of male to female transsexuals. The brains in trans boys are no different than non-trans boys.
...............
Treating the psychological or psychiatric disorder is the answer, not changing genders.

Read More

Quote from the actual study:

The present study does not support the dogma that MtF-TR have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences in structural volumes, gray, and WM fractions. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).

Source

This is in line with other research from the same institute:

As CfGM kickstarts an innovative seminars series on Gender, Health and Human Rights, a new study published in Journal of Neuroscience found that - in average - the white matter of transgender individuals is distinct from either female and male, hinting to a biological bias for gender identity.

Source

Aside from that, science isn't about proving what is, it's about proving what isn't. In this case, in a trend common in biology and physics etc, the potential truth is turning out be stranger than what we might expect it to be. Proving that a brain isn't 'feminized' doesn't disprove gender dysphoria or prove that it's purely a condition for psychiatry. This is in line with some research results regarding intersexed people's brain structures where conditions have common trends in behavior despite what we might expect from brain structures.

So the truth is probably odder than we expect, not quite as simple as the #sexual community would like it to be, but it certainly doesn't support people who want the simplicity of a gender dichotomy either.

In short, we should spend more time reading the literature before arguing about it because most people are wasting their time.

What complicates this sort of research is the discovery of neuroplasticity. This is the fact that behavior can alter brain structure, so one is left with a "chicken and egg" dilemma--did the brain structure cause the behavior or did the behavior alter the brain structure?

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: NavyDoc

Are you doctor?

Yes. M.D.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: queenofswords
Has the whole world gone mad? What is going on? This is not a rhetorical question....really, what is this all about?! Why are they pushing this?

The brain is not even fully developed until the mid 20's! Some studies have shown that 70%-80% of kids who had expressed transgendered feelings "spontaneously lost those feelings" over time.

Dr Carmichael said it was 'better' for children not to have gone through puberty before 'transitioning'. But she added: 'You are asking someone aged as young as 11 to make big decisions about their adult life and identity. We have to be very careful to keep options open.'

Transgender children?

It's sick, and abuse, as far as I am concerned. I read a news story about a kid younger than that who supposedly wanted to change, and he was being raised by (bet you can guess) an all-female couple. But, sure, it was all his idea, right? Not! How this is even legal, I can't imagine. Kids have no idea at that age. Pre-puberty, sex shouldn't even be an issue at all for them.

Lets assume it was thei influence....so one same sex family is screwed up. OK, so you tar all of them with the same brush. Well, i think that mix couple families are sick! The dads are very frequently abusing the kids..how have i come to this conclusion? Well, there was that guy in belgium that locked up and raped his daughter. Therefore, guilt by association for ALL mixed families. Right?

This is how you guys like to use logic right? OR, you could just come out and say "i hate gays" and at least have the balls to be honest about your thoughts.

a reply to: NavyDoc

What emotional, mental health and physical treatments would you provide for someone bringing you their 13 year old daughter with this issue.

a reply to: queenofswords

Thats messed up.....


Sorry but such a massive change in life should not be legal until your a full adult and gone through extensive mental evaluations.


A teenagers going through puberty is NOT stable and can change there mind at any point!

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: NavyDoc

What emotional, mental health and physical treatments would you provide for someone bringing you their 13 year old daughter with this issue.

The treatments for most dysphorias, of which gender identity dysphoria is one, are mainly supportive, non-condemning psychotherapy designed to increase an individuals self worth and recognize that they are great people as they are. One of my mentors in medical school went from "Anne" to "Evan" during those 4 years and he was adamantly against reinforcing transgenderism in juveniles because, as previously stated in this thread , juveniles are in flux in so many ways that one does not know what they really want or what they really are at that time. Unconditional love and support, not hormone blockers, is what a 13 year old needs.

Then, when she is an adult, she is better off when she makes her own decision. One thing that is important is to have a stable, loving, and supportive household because it is possible that her feelings of transgenderism may be a symptom of another problem--you want to reduce confounding factors.

a reply to: queenofswords

This is Totally SICK!! I mean really?!?!
WTF has happened to Our Planet?!?!
Wow. Just WOW!!!...

a reply to: NavyDoc

Thank you for that empathic and reasonable response
I appreciate that it is a hard subject and none really has the answers to this, so why people are so quick to politicize a childs hardship I'll never know.

I asked you how you wold personally treat this, as I only have your posting history to go on which comes across (to me) as angry and very anti anything "not normal", I have thought to myself in the past "imagine if you were some poor gay guy wanting medical assistance from this person" You really don't come across as having empathy for peoples struggles that may lead to medical issues for them, therefore, I was interested to hear how you would actually treat this issue and am pleasantly surprised by your response.

Trans is a hard subject, so hard for parents, the child, everyone, so much harder than for people who come in and fire off how sick everyone is involved on something they have no idea about. (referring to others not you)

Thanks for the reply.

You must have went and did a little research, well yes there are side effects. However most of those are directly related to usage thus when stopped and allowing the original hormones to kick back in are no longer a risk. Other more serious ones are rare in occurrence and quite an acceptable risk for those of us that wish to transition that urgently.

We are not dumb, we know what comes with the territory. I have no sympathy for those that go outside of the professional arena of reputable doctors and have horrible effects. They should have been smart or self educated enough to not allow that shady individual in the motel 6 to inject your butt with cement or sell you hormones from mexico. Blood levels have to be monitored every couple of months to check to make sure all is good.

I should know, I spoke with my doctor a week ago.

a reply to: NavyDoc

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: NavyDoc

What emotional, mental health and physical treatments would you provide for someone bringing you their 13 year old daughter with this issue.

The treatments for most dysphorias, of which gender identity dysphoria is one, are mainly supportive, non-condemning psychotherapy designed to increase an individuals self worth and recognize that they are great people as they are. One of my mentors in medical school went from "Anne" to "Evan" during those 4 years and he was adamantly against reinforcing transgenderism in juveniles because, as previously stated in this thread , juveniles are in flux in so many ways that one does not know what they really want or what they really are at that time. Unconditional love and support, not hormone blockers, is what a 13 year old needs.

Then, when she is an adult, she is better off when she makes her own decision. One thing that is important is to have a stable, loving, and supportive household because it is possible that her feelings of transgenderism may be a symptom of another problem--you want to reduce confounding factors.

To me it's a tough call. The hormone therapy would be most effective during someone's formative years in helping them get the body image that matches them mentally, but it's certainly true that teenagers are still forming mentally as well, and may (read: probably will) change their mind about what they really want SEVERAL times while growing up.

When I was younger, I was the "tomboy" of my friends. Often shunning the company of females to hang out with my male friends. They were more fun, honestly. Rough and tumble, we would get into all sorts of antics! At about age 13 I started to wonder if I was a boy in a girl's body. If that feeling had been reinforced instead of just passed off as a phase, I'd probably be "Raildude" right now.

Truth be told, I'm perfectly happy with my body today.

Soo... It's tough. Some kids will keep their dysphoria well into adulthood. But it's hard to judge which are sincere about transitioning and which are just going through a phase.

I am on the fence about hormone therapy for youngins. I think at the very least, mid teens should be the minimum legal age.