Biblical Plunder

I used to have a book with a red cloth cover which contained a Basic High School Education, meaning that once completed, a student could pass College Entrance Exams without having to take remedial courses in order to catch up to Freshman College level. That book was smaller than the Bible.

I've been thinking about the Bible lately, and I'm seeing a pattern of anti-civilization, anti-academia, anti-technology. And it isn't only that the Bible doesn't bother to be a Farmer's Almanac or Cartography Handbook or Architectural Design instruction, it seems to offer the fruits of civilization as plunder to be taken from those who studied, learned, worked, and built.

NET(New English Translation)
Deut. 6:10Then when the Lord your God brings you to the land he promised your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give you – a land with large, fine cities you did not build, 11houses filled with choice things you did not accumulate, hewn out cisterns you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant – and you eat your fill, 12be careful not to forget the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, that place of slavery. 13You must revere the Lord your God, serve him, and take oaths using only his name. 14You must not go after other gods, those of the surrounding peoples, 15for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land.

Joshua 24:1Joshua assembled all the Israelite tribes at Shechem ...
2Joshua told all the people, “Here is what the Lord God of Israel says: ‘In the distant past your ancestors lived beyond the Euphrates River, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor. They worshiped other gods, 3but I took your father Abraham from beyond the Euphrates and brought him into the entire land of Canaan.
5... I struck Egypt down when I intervened in their land. Then I brought you out.
...13 I gave you a land in which you had not worked hard; you took up residence in cities you did not build and you are eating the produce of vineyards and olive groves you did not plant.’
...15If you have no desire to worship the Lord, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the Lord!”

And it isn't just this Exodus business. Genesis has stories of direct divine intervention against Civilization; ie. Flood and Tower of Babel.

I saw a documentary about humans. Shanghai is a very populated and built up city. People can literally live their whole lives in a square mile area. That kind of blew my mind. I would not like to see that city destroyed.

originally posted by: pthena
I used to have a book with a red cloth cover which contained a Basic High School Education, meaning that once completed, a student could pass College Entrance Exams without having to take remedial courses in order to catch up to Freshman College level. That book was smaller than the Bible.

I've been thinking about the Bible lately, and I'm seeing a pattern of anti-civilization, anti-academia, anti-technology. And it isn't only that the Bible doesn't bother to be a Farmer's Almanac or Cartography Handbook or Architectural Design instruction, it seems to offer the fruits of civilization as plunder to be taken from those who studied, learned, worked, and built.

NET(New English Translation)
Deut. 6:10Then when the Lord your God brings you to the land he promised your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give you – a land with large, fine cities you did not build, 11houses filled with choice things you did not accumulate, hewn out cisterns you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant – and you eat your fill, 12be careful not to forget the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, that place of slavery. 13You must revere the Lord your God, serve him, and take oaths using only his name. 14You must not go after other gods, those of the surrounding peoples, 15for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land.

Joshua 24:1Joshua assembled all the Israelite tribes at Shechem ...
2Joshua told all the people, “Here is what the Lord God of Israel says: ‘In the distant past your ancestors lived beyond the Euphrates River, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor. They worshiped other gods, 3but I took your father Abraham from beyond the Euphrates and brought him into the entire land of Canaan.
5... I struck Egypt down when I intervened in their land. Then I brought you out.
...13 I gave you a land in which you had not worked hard; you took up residence in cities you did not build and you are eating the produce of vineyards and olive groves you did not plant.’
...15If you have no desire to worship the Lord, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the Lord!”

And it isn't just this Exodus business. Genesis has stories of direct divine intervention against Civilization; ie. Flood and Tower of Babel.

I saw a documentary about humans. Shanghai is a very populated and built up city. People can literally live their whole lives in a square mile area. That kind of blew my mind. I would not like to see that city destroyed.

Yeah, having grown up Christian, studying the Bible, and then moving on to other philosophies, I can get why both the Gnostics and Luciferians, or at least some sects of them, say that the God of the OT was an evil demigod hell bent on oppressing humans, and wasn't the true God. I'm not saying I believe this one way or another, but I can get it.

As to cities, yeah. I think probably most of the truly global cities one could live and do everything in small areas. I'm pretty sure that if one can get a job in said square mile in NY, someone can also never leave the square mile they live in.

a reply to: pthena

.....it seems to offer the fruits of civilization as plunder to be taken from those who studied, learned, worked, and built.

Yep! Starred and flagged.

Enter Christianity and Pope Nicholas V, who gave the Doctrine of Discovery

In 1095, at the beginning of the Crusades, Pope Urban II issued an edict-the Papal Bull Terra Nullius (meaning empty land). It gave the kings and princes of Europe the right to "discover" or claim land in non-Christian areas. This policy was extended in 1452 when Pope Nicholas V issued the bull Romanus Pontifex, declaring war against all non-Christians throughout the world and authorizing the conquest of their nations and territories. These edicts treated non-Christians as uncivilized and subhuman, and therefore without rights to any land or nation. Christian leaders claimed a God-given right to take control of all lands and used this idea to justify war, colonization, and even slavery.
archive.adl.org...

Same story, different character.

a reply to: pthena

For he is a jealous wrathful god... but if he/she/it was the true God, what would he need to be jealous of since there is nothing higher...

There is one thing that so called god is not...

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

And James says God IS love...

they can't be speaking of the same entity

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I can get why both the Gnostics and Luciferians, or at least some sects of them, say that the God of the OT was an evil demigod hell bent on oppressing humans, and wasn't the true God.

I tried to be a neo-Marcionite for a while. That didn't really change the fact that the Gospel Jesus never said to children, "Stay in school. Get a good education. Learn a skill. Build great things." Maybe I'm just missing that verse. Perhaps someone can point it out to me.

Just to show that I'm not just picking on the Old Testament.

2Corinthians 10:3For though we live as human beings, we do not wage war according to human standards, 4for the weapons of our warfare are not human weapons, but are made powerful by God for tearing down strongholds. We tear down arguments 5and every arrogant obstacle that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to make it obey Christ. 6We are also ready to punish every act of disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

What's Paul saying? We live like humans, in the cities, eating the food produced by humans, but really we're tearing down everything opposed to a particular idea of god.

a reply to: pthena

One must remember Paul was a very educated man... he routinely stole material from Greek and Roman philosophy in his letters to gain converts.

He even states clearly...

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

He also considered the leaders of empires to be placed there by God, so we must obey them

a reply to: windword

Thank you. I'll have to read the whole link to Doctrine of Discovery.

Somebody (anti-Catholic) told me once that that had never been rescinded, and the Papacy would use it some day to claim ownership of the whole world.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I can get why both the Gnostics and Luciferians, or at least some sects of them, say that the God of the OT was an evil demigod hell bent on oppressing humans, and wasn't the true God.

I tried to be a neo-Marcionite for a while. That didn't really change the fact that the Gospel Jesus never said to children, "Stay in school. Get a good education. Learn a skill. Build great things." Maybe I'm just missing that verse. Perhaps someone can point it out to me.

Just to show that I'm not just picking on the Old Testament.

2Corinthians 10:3For though we live as human beings, we do not wage war according to human standards, 4for the weapons of our warfare are not human weapons, but are made powerful by God for tearing down strongholds. We tear down arguments 5and every arrogant obstacle that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to make it obey Christ. 6We are also ready to punish every act of disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

What's Paul saying? We live like humans, in the cities, eating the food produced by humans, but really we're tearing down everything opposed to a particular idea of god.

Well, to be fair however, many religious leaders and texts do not focus on material gain. Jesus, obviously, did not. But neither do the Bhagavad Gita and general Vedic umbrella of philosophies. Neither does Buddhism, etc.

I think that all of these philosophies more place priorities on going within, connecting to the universe, and spirituality. That doesn't mean that they are mutually exclusive with material realities, temporal education, and society, although many extremists and fundamentalists frame it that way.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: pthena

For he is a jealous wrathful god... but if he/she/it was the true God, what would he need to be jealous of since there is nothing higher...

There is one thing that so called god is not...

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

And James says God IS love...

they can't be speaking of the same entity

Any God that condemns everyone to hell for either original sin 6000 years ago or their universal inability to reach a standard of Biblical perfection, cannot be a just God.

"Robots are amoral." -Ayn Rand

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Ah but you'll notice Jesus said nothing about "original sin"...

Jesus said to follow him, and what he taught was right for everyone...

The world would be a different place of more followed his words, not the rest of the "good book"

a reply to: Akragon

One must remember Paul was a very educated man... he routinely stole material from Greek and Roman philosophy in his letters to gain converts

Scholars say he had a Stoic education based upon his word structure.

He also considered the leaders of empires to be placed there by God, so we must obey them

I'm not living in an empire at the moment. I'm not an anarchist. If people were to ask the emperors who put them in their position some of them would list off a whole bunch of gods and goddesses and leave out any mention of the bible character. Example Cyrus the Great listed off lots of deities. Some bible prophet called Cyrus the Messiah. Go figure!

a reply to: pthena

Scholars say he had a Stoic education based upon his word structure.

Could be I suppose... But he was clearly very educated in Greek philosophy as well...

In a few cases he takes ideas directly from their philosophers and even a few plays based on their ideas

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus said to follow him, and what he taught was right for everyone...

Jesus may have told a few people to follow him. Perhaps his ethics were a distinct turning away from Old Testament ways. There's nothing particularly wrong with idealism, as long as it's balanced with realism.

Living a real life includes learning skills, and using them. From there, with a sharing ideal, one may discover building and sustaining society are the same. I can't speak for Jesus, but he seemed a bit ambivalent about many things.

a reply to: pthena

Do you believe he was against working?

He had a mission, but before he was set upon that mission he was a carpenter apparently, which is a very hard trade

Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened... He said nothing about not working hard and learning, his words are more about how we should treat one another. Exactly what most of the world didn't understand

And still doesn't...

a reply to: Akragon

Matthew 4:18
And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

He certainly didn't make hard work and familiar responsibility a priority!

a reply to: Akragon

He had a mission,

And we still haven't figured out exactly what that mission was.

Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened... He said nothing about not working hard and learning, his words are more about how we should treat one another. Exactly what most of the world didn't understand

Matthew 6 (WEB)

25Therefore, I tell you, don't be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they? 27"Which of you, by being anxious, can add one moment to his lifespan? 28Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin, 29yet I tell you that even Solomon in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. 30But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won't he much more clothe you, you of little faith? 31"Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' 32For the Gentiles seek after all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.

How exactly is that different from the Torah instruction to wear verses on your forehead and write verses on your doorways? In other words obsess about the god, rather than building, sowing, sewing, and what not.

a reply to: windword

Like I said... He had a mission

the apostles had to continue his message after he was gone... that became their mission

He said "I will only be with you a little while"... he knew his fate, so while he was there he wanted his followers to learn about his teaching

a reply to: pthena

How exactly is that different from the Torah instruction to wear verses on your forehead and write verses on your doorways? In other words obsess about the god, rather than building, sowing, sewing, and what not.

They believed in their scrolls rather then the son of God...

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Its wasn't ever about following what people considered "Gods words" in their scrolls...

It was always about how one treats others... that is the door to the kingdom, and the key to it...

a reply to: pthena

And we still haven't figured out exactly what that mission was.

Have we not?

Christianity hasn't, but that's because the majority of that religion follows Paul

His mission was simple, as was his message...

Its just a shame he died to get it out there

a reply to: Akragon

It was always about how one treats others... that is the door to the kingdom, and the key to it...

I suppose that you can reach that conclusion from some passages. But that isn't what John Chapter 5 is about. It's about his work, including healing on the Sabbath as testifying of the god who sent him. And that he, Jesus gives life to those who hear him.

Comes down to defining what the kingdom is and what life eternal is and how is that different from what Gentiles are all about.