UK EU Referendum, IN or OUT?

Should the UK Remain a member of the European Union? YES or No?

Hi Everyone,

As I’m sure you are now all aware, the state opening of parliament happened on Wednesday 27th May and part of the Queens speech, outlining the goverments intentions was to introduce legislation that paves the way for a referendum on whether the UK remains a member of the European Union or withdraws by the end of 2017.

UK EU Referendum

I’ll make it completely clear at the start of this thread that as yet I am undecided as to how I will vote, as I don’t yet know fully the consequences of leaving, or indeed staying. All I do know is the sensationalist political propaganda I have seen given by both the IN and OUT campaigns up to now. I am hoping that this thread can remain civilised and focus on the facts ( and stay away from the Scottish Independence issue), stripping away all the sensationalism, to help me, and maybe others, make an informed decision when the referendum actually happens.

First of all, Ive been doing some of my own research to try to get my head around what actually is the matter we are going to be asked to decide on;

Some reasons I have found to vote to leave the EU

£33 Million Per Day Net Contribution to EU

£33 million per day, or £12,045 Billion would go a long way fixing some of the problems we have, more nurses, more doctors, more hospitals, better transport links, the list is almost endless.

Transfer of Powers and Imposed Laws from EU

I’m proud to be British, I don’t want to become part of a European ‘superstate’ I don’t want my country have laws and rules imposed on it from Brussels, I’m all for countries working together and having sensible, well reasoned laws and rules, but what business does an Italian/German/French etc… MEP in brussels have dicating what laws/rules I must abide by in Britain?

Some reasons I have found to stay in the EU

No link for this one, but my fear is if Britain votes to leave, and no agreement is made to gain favourable non-member trade terms, (lets be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if the EU spat its dummy out and didn’t just to spite Britain) then some companies may want to relocate to within the EU borders.
My own personal example. I’m a supervisor at the Nissan automotive plant in the North East, we export the vast majority of our vehicles to Europe. If Britain votes to leave and the cost of exporting to the EU from outside the EU (as Britain will then be) may be enough of a reason for my company to decide to pack up and move to within the EU.
As far fetched as that sounds, if it was to happen, it would absolutely destroy the North East, thousands work at the main plants, and many thousands more work in the supply chain that could find themselves out of work.
There are probably many other similar examples around the country.

So lets get this debate going and I'm expecting some passionate replies, but remember, let’s keep it civil and stick to the facts and we can help any undecided (like me) decide!

Mick

Also, forgot to add to the above,

If Britain does vote to leave, and we cant agree favourable trade terms, and exports to the EU end up costing more, what is Britains back up plan?

Another issue i know is going to get brought up in this thread is the immigration issue, while I agree that non contributing immigrants shouldnt be drawing off our system, immigrants that have came and are working and contributing to the economy should be allowed to stay, and im in favour of an immigration system similat to Australia, based on skills and the need for that skill.

Mick

Its all an illusion, Cameron knows the status quo wins due to fear of the unknown, so he made these referendums that will change nothing, just to weaken the parties that support the idea.

Will Scotland separates from UK? referendum, people fear Scotland would be worse without the UK, people votes for status quo, supporters of independence are burned down as they had their chance and failed.

Will UK leave the EU? referendum, people would fear their factories would go to EU and... supporters fail their chance and the idea is forgotten.

Usually the people in power only do referendums when they know they will win just to diminish the power of the opposition, they made the illusion you chose something, they only let you chose when you will chose what they want.

If we don't get a better deal then out for me.
Also if Greece defaults I fear the eu will be up # creek.

Leave. The Scotts almost voted to leave, and there is a huge controversy about immigrants and British nationals alike apparently having underground rings where they take advantage of children and young adolescents. There is a whole host of budgetary issues just from what I can glean, and there is a lot of unhappiness that is only growing.

You have enough problems in your own nation without having to deal with the French and the Germans and their whims.

And, if nothing else, leave because, sooner or later, Greece is going to fall. It's not an if, it's a when. Greece is already starting to resemble a third world country in many things, even having to scrounge for basic medical supplies in some places, and you cannot get blood from a stone. Limit your exposure.

I believe that we should stay for three reasons.

The first reason is that if we leave we will basically be at the mercy of Europe with no say in what Europe does, who would be our partner? USA, South America? China perhaps?

The second reason is for the protection of the more than 2 million British people who are working in Europe, oh what? We forgot that there are more than 2 million Brits in Europe? What shall we do with them once they are FORCED to come back home?

Third reason is that I feel an affinity with Europe that I don't feel with any other geographical region.

So I want to stay.

originally posted by: Jonjonj


The second reason is for the protection of the more than 2 million British people who are working in Europe, oh what? We forgot that there are more than 2 million Brits in Europe? What shall we do with them once they are FORCED to come back home?

Would the Brits affected by this not just have to apply for a non-EU work permit, much like, say, a Nigerian has to to work in the UK?

They wouldnt neccessarily have to leave surely? or would they? i honestly dont know.

a reply to: ukmicky1980

Yes they would of course be able to do that.

But here is the thing, why would a country that had basically been negated by the UK, facilitate any kind of help to a citizen of that country?

Out.

I don't want to be part of the Franco-German empire.

The only people that benefit from the EU are the rich and powerful and big business, the little man suffers.

Time to trade with the world again, and use the contribution money at home to pump into things like NHS, Education and Defence.

a reply to: DAZ21

On a personal level my son would find it much harder to see his English family. More paperwork, more idiocy. Say what you like and I respect your views, I simply disagree with them.

Even on a geographical level Europe is where we really need to be, anyone who says different should just look at a fecking map. I mean really?

a reply to: Jonjonj

Why would it be hard to visit his family? You can go to south America freely if you want too, and we aren't in a union with them. It's rubbish...Europe won't stop Brits from holidaying or travelling around Europe.

Freedom of movement only affects those who want to live in a European country. If he wants to work in that European country, then he can get a work permit....

a reply to: DAZ21

I think that you are making the mistake of understanding the present day rules and regulations with what would become the rules and regulations once we leave Europe,

There would no longer be free movement in Europe.
There would no longer be a guaranteed export quantity.
There are many things that would change.

Today a French minister criticised the UK for signing up for football and trying to turn the game into rugby...

Erm...no...we signed up for a common market and the German-French pact have slowly transitioned this common market into a United States of Europe...so who changed the game?

Cameron has already backed out of ditching the criminal...er...I mean human rights act. And has backed down on the free movement law...so what half-assed changes is he going to get for us? Nothing worthwhile really. If he did manage to Europe would find a way of going back on their word after the referendum anyway.

The only answer is to leave, there's no reason to stay that can be backed up by a good argument. In the end it's just a corrupt state. FIFA is like a microcosm of the EU, full of heinous individuals getting insanely rich and trying to stick to their sinking ship...Blatter comes to mind....so corrupt he knows he's untouchable and these are the same type of people that run the EU machine.

Voting for such an institution is practically handing what's left of the small man's power to untouchable bureaucrats....

Plus and here is the big one, countries do NOT just offer open borders and free movement to the world.
The idea is reciprocal, you let my people travel and I will let yours.
This can become very messy once the British, with their penchant for taking foreign holidays suddenly starts to to fail.
You really haven't thought this through.

a reply to: Jonjonj

Really?.... You think they would have an effective ban on Brits that want to travel and work? That's ridiculous, I'm sorry.

And stop with the trade scaremongering, you don't just stop trading with one of your largest trading partners, that would be economical suicide.

If they were so idiotic, then so be it. We will freely set up trade deals with the rest of the world...which is something we actually can't do at the moment.

Voting for such an institution is practically handing what's left of the small man's power to untouchable bureaucrats.

So then, you want to be a small fish in a big pond? Please, tell me HOW that will work?

originally posted by: DAZ21
a reply to: Jonjonj

Really?.... You think they would have an effective ban on Brits that want to travel and work? That's ridiculous, I'm sorry.

And stop with the trade scaremongering, you don't just stop trading with one of your largest trading partners, that would be economical suicide.

If they were so idiotic, then so be it. We will freely set up trade deals with the rest of the world...which is something we actually can't do at the moment.

Why is it ridiculous to suppose that they would exclude a country that had voted to relinquish relations. Please tell me how?

Oh and good luck with the "rest of the world"
Let us try South America, Argentina runs south america, good luck there.
Let us try Asia...China could block us whenever they felt like it.
Africa, most African countries are in the process of revolution.
North America...ah yes, let us be the whipping child of the USA, once again.
So what is left?

a reply to: Jonjonj

Let me answer both of these questions.

I feel there is no fear of being a small fish in a big pond...because one, we're not that small economically speaking. Two, Japan aren't in a union, New Zealand aren't in a union...I'm just picking islands, but we could look at any individual country...how are we different? why are we supposedly too stupid to go alone?

If I wanted to go to North Korea on holiday I could...so unless you are saying that Europe will become more extreme in it's visa policies than North Korea, what you are saying is a bit silly.