mice inherit learned behavior?

www.nature.com...

"Certain fears can be inherited through the generations, a provocative study of mice reports1. The authors suggest that a similar phenomenon could influence anxiety and addiction in humans. But some researchers are sceptical of the findings because a biological mechanism that explains the phenomenon has not been identified."

"Studying the biological basis for those effects in humans would be difficult. So Ressler and his colleague Brian Dias opted to study epigenetic inheritance in laboratory mice trained to fear the smell of acetophenone, a chemical the scent of which has been compared to those of cherries and almonds. He and Dias wafted the scent around a small chamber, while giving small electric shocks to male mice. The animals eventually learned to associate the scent with pain, shuddering in the presence of acetophenone even without a shock

This reaction was passed on to their pups"



So how is a learned fear reaction passed down to further generations? The researchers are puzzled as well. This sounds very Lamarckian to me. Adaptation with learned behaviors passed down to the next generations. There is still no explanation for this experiment.

a reply to: kcgads

Oh yea, anxiety is passed down in my wife's family. All the women have it and they're all hypochondriacs!!! My wife's father acts like a baby when he's sick!! My wife's the same way. A day doesn't go by without hearing something that ails her.

I believe that DNA changes,in store info.

I should try to make this thread all about me. Since I am a mouse.

The junk part of DNA is passed on knowledge of how to react to changes in the environment. Now we all have this Junk DNA and correctly reading it and keeping certain genes from improperly expressing themselves is crucial. The thing is that no testing of chemicals added to foods is done to see if anything can cause improper function of gene expression. Many chemicals considered gras are not actually tested for anything other than if they make you physically sick withing say twenty four hours. They have evidence to take some of these chemicals off the market but they do not allow this evidence to be used very often. With over fifty thousand approved chemicals added to our food supply, I am sure some of these are causing harm when utilized on a regular basis. According to this new info it appears that this problem can be passed on for generations. We need to reevaluate this stuff and change the policy of the FDA to protect people and not just wthe rights of chemical manufacturers.

a reply to: DEANORULES24

How would a fear of smell change the DNA in sperm? It would have to be a directed change,and that goes against the theory of evolution. You can only have random mutations of DNA.

a reply to: kcgads

Its just a theory I have, We still have a lot to learn about junk DNA.

originally posted by: DEANORULES24
a reply to: kcgads

Its just a theory I have, We still have a lot to learn about junk DNA.

I would like to hear your theory.

I personally don't believe all DNA mutations are random.

a reply to: kcgads

Sperm is not created just once and that's it. One would presume once the change occurs sperm created after the change would include the alteration.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: kcgads

Sperm is not created just once and that's it. One would presume once the change occurs sperm created after the change would include the alteration.

Sure, but how? How does a fear of smell change the DNA in sperm? This wouldn't be random mutation. This would be lamarckian . A change based directly from the environment.

originally posted by: kcgads

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: kcgads

Sperm is not created just once and that's it. One would presume once the change occurs sperm created after the change would include the alteration.

Sure, but how? How does a fear of smell change the DNA in sperm? This wouldn't be random mutation. This would be lamarckian . A change based directly from the environment.

Have you ever heard of Epigenetics ?

a reply to: kcgads

We've proven the body can cure itself quite often simply by thinking it can. Clearly the mind and body is more linked than people give it credit for. There''s some system in place that allows one to influence their DNA at least on a subtle level, unconsciously due to environmental factors and pressures. What this mechanism is I do not know, but it would help fill the gap in a lot of evolutionary science if that mechanism can be found or proven.

originally posted by: gosseyn

originally posted by: kcgads

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: kcgads

Sperm is not created just once and that's it. One would presume once the change occurs sperm created after the change would include the alteration.

Sure, but how? How does a fear of smell change the DNA in sperm? This wouldn't be random mutation. This would be lamarckian . A change based directly from the environment.

Have you ever heard of Epigenetics ?

Yes I've heard of epigenetics, but I don't really understand it.

You can give it any name you want(epigenetics, etc), but it is still simply some form of non-random mutation/change to the organism.

The fear itself isn't what is passed down, it's the instinct to react to the environmental stimuli (in this case the smell). Think about it. The mice are tortured and become mentally scarred for life. It makes perfect sense that their subsequent offspring would be screwed up as well. It's like how alcoholism always seems to run in the family. We all know alcohol doesn't directly affect the genetic code.

Another option, and far more likely IMO, is that the mice already had a gene for this type of reaction and the experiment changed whether or not this particular gene was expressed. I don't know if it's just me, but experiments like this bother me. Intentionally inflicting pain on other living creature seems kind of barbaric to me.

a reply to: Barcs

I agree. Don't they have laws against cruelty to animals?

originally posted by: kcgads
a reply to: Barcs

I agree. Don't they have laws against cruelty to animals?

I thought that they did, but the line might be kind of fuzzy. Mice might not be considered intelligent enough to matter, although honestly I hate this reasoning as they clearly are sentient and feel pain regardless. If they did this experiment on cats or dogs, riots would break out but humans seem to think that less intelligent animals aren't as valuable, which is complete nonsense in my book.

originally posted by: kcgads
a reply to: Barcs

I agree. Don't they have laws against cruelty to animals?

Time have moved on since this, thank goodness: en.wikipedia.org...

Well, I've been raising and breeding my own pet "fancy" mice for years, so I asked them, and they said it's actually that the chemical scent used triggers hereditary ESP. But it's hard to know when a talking mouse is telling the truth.

The only way this could work is through selective breeding. Perhaps a scared doe is more inclined to mate with a buck as scared as she is, and so they have scared offspring. Does can be quite picky about mates based on environment--that's part of why Mus Musculus is arguably the world's most adaptive mammal. Or maybe the data are flawed, which is my bet.

originally posted by: sepermeru
Well, I've been raising and breeding my own pet "fancy" mice for years, so I asked them, and they said it's actually that the chemical scent used triggers hereditary ESP. But it's hard to know when a talking mouse is telling the truth.

The only way this could work is through selective breeding. Perhaps a scared doe is more inclined to mate with a buck as scared as she is, and so they have scared offspring. Does can be quite picky about mates based on environment--that's part of why Mus Musculus is arguably the world's most adaptive mammal. Or maybe the data are flawed, which is my bet.

I've been thinking, perhaps the data is flawed. How do you test that a mouse is "scared" anyway? I think it is too subjective.

a reply to: kcgads

The behaviour may have been "inherited" by yet unknown mechanism. I would suggest the common consciousness shared by the researchers and the mouses. Or the mousekittens and their mother. Or the expectations of the researchers.

The study should be repeated so that the new generation goes to another researcher who doesn't even know which behaviour to study. Given a list of ten different experiments.