Occam’s razor: we were created over evolved

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Except for one thing: who created our creator? And then who created the creators creator.

If creation is how it happens...then we need to be able to explain the above without magic.

we all know you wont get a satisfactory answer to this. no one ever does.

Except for one thing: what created the ingredient for ingredients? And then what created the ingredients ingredients.

Does your town not have a library or a bookstore? Can you not just type into your browser "google scholar" and then search? Oh wait... you don't actually believe in science despite it giving you access to forums like this where you can converse with people from across the globe, increasing food production and access so that you can have fruit from Hawaii, Florida or Italy within days of its harvest or the medical advancements that allow nearly every child born in westernized nations to survive to adulthood. Those darned science believers peddling their filth...

The same answer applies to the silly evolution tale and yet they swallow it whole, accept it and love it.

Who is this "they" that encompasses your overly dramatic broad generalization of anyone who doesn't view the universe through your own hazy lens?

Face it, neither story is even remotely interesting, neither near any sort of reality, or worth debating.

What a sad and dull world you must live in when science isn't remotely interesting, worthy of debating or understandable enough for you to concoct a cogent argument against the actual facts which forces you into ad hominem attacks that are reminiscent of a toddler stomping their feet when they don't get the toy they wanted at the store.

It is beyond shocking how people can wrap there minds around the evolutionary tale, nod heads and say it is acceptable even in theory, and then use it as fact in the locked down repressed minds they think are free.

HAHA " acceptable even in theory". Winner winner chicken dinner! Are you from America? I'm just assuming that you are because you give the appearance of demonstrating yet another glowing example of the quality of the education system here as well as its utterly dismal failure to instill even the most basic understanding of science or basic scientific definitions. Actually, I take that back. It's sheer, unadulterated and purposely willful ignorance because I see nearly every day on ATS someone having to explain the difference between a scientific theory and the theories concocted by Scooby, Shaggy and the gang while solving mysteries. With the amount of times people have demonstrated the differences and cited appropriate links, there just isn't any excuse to fail to understand the distinction at this point.

NO DIFFERENCE, in the tales, ZERO proof, possible small snippets of truth, and really they are the exact same BS, but you are choosing, and feel that you HAVE to choose, from these possibilities.

I can't really speak for anyone else but from a personal perspective, myself and others I've spoken with on these forums, entertain the possibility of many scenarios. Unfortunately for the uneducated and willfully ignorant of the world, we also tend to lean towards things that can be shown to be true. Things that can be supported with facts. Your inability to acknowledge evidence and facts is your own short coming that instead of addressing, you project upon the rest of the world while venting your frustration and repeating your ignorance of nearly any scientific discipline.

Talk about YAWN.

I agree... you should come up with a new routine because YAWN...this one is getting tired and old. Maybe Ringling Bros. Clown College is accepting applications for the balloon animal class? It'll be hot down in Florida this time of yeara but hey.. if you're going to make balloon animals, you might as well learn from the best!

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Sorry my friend but I disagree: if the universe has been created by intelligent design (the fine tuning in your video) then there wouldn't be any deadly disease or it wouldn't be fine tuning. Look at us, so frail and so dependent on others and the environment, surely a creator wouldn't have made us so fragile and prone to pain?

And even assuming a creator made us with lots of errors, surely he/she would have fixed all mistakes and not leave the universe so imperfect it turns on itself and all that inhabit it.. just like you would do with a piece of art.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Your science is as stupid as the 6 days in the Bible.

How so? Science is verified by experiments and evidence. God and 6day creation has ZERO evidence for it.

Actually it is even less likely, than the Bible story which is amazing in of itself.

I'd LOVE to see your math on this one. Please demonstrate that the bible is more likely than verifiable science. That's a riot.

Whose idea is it anyways that we limit ourselves to these ridiculous propositions ??

Logic states that believing in something with zero objective evidence is irrational. That doesn't mean you can't believe it, but stop acting like an ancient story holds more weight than modern science. It does not, in fact the large majority of the OT was written when most people were illiterate and knew almost nothing about how the world worked.

Therein lies the truth of who is hiding things, someone sure wants us to stay confused.

Exactly. Let's see now who do we believe? The guy that claims an ancient myth is the direct word of god with zero evidence and tries to force it into law, or the guy that tries to figure out how the world works by running experiments and tests and then implementing the knowledge to make our lives better?

I will rejoice if and ever, the masses such as yourself ever try originating a thought for yourself, and stop believing ludicrous and simplistic at best , stories.

And you say this as a bible believer? LMAO look in the mirror. I never understood the need to criticize science, when you believe something on a whim with no evidence at all to verify it. That is your choice to believe, but it is completely illogical to attack science when your worldview is a complete guess.

The same answer applies to the silly evolution tale and yet they swallow it whole, accept it and love it.

No it does not. Evolution isn't about creation, it's about genetic mutations and common descent. It sounds like you are yet another scientific illiterate claiming to know more about science than the folks who have studied it for decades. Get over yourself. You believe something blindly, you aren't above any other belief or worldview, and certainly not the objective fields of scientific study.

Face it, neither story is even remotely interesting, neither near any sort of reality, or worth debating.

It's not about interest, it's about what the evidence says, and thus far none of it points toward creation.

It is beyond shocking how people can wrap there minds around the evolutionary tale, nod heads and say it is acceptable even in theory, and then use it as fact in the locked down repressed minds they think are free.

NO DIFFERENCE, in the tales, ZERO proof, possible small snippets of truth, and really they are the exact same BS, but you are choosing, and feel that you HAVE to choose, from these possibilities.

So you think the evidence and results of the experiments are just made up? You think that a bunch of evil scientists just got together in a dark candle lit room and decided to fabricate evidence to deceive the world? Even though anybody can become a scientist and study it for themselves? Yet you believe in an ancient storybook from thousands of years ago as absolute truth. It's just hilarious the glaring contradiction between those 2 view points. You are an extreme skeptic of science yet believe your worldview as unwavering fact. Me thinks you haven't even researched any of the science and don't even know what evolution means.

I suppose if you think all science is some giant conspiracy, you are welcome to have that view, just by all means, throw away your TV, refrigerator, internet and computer as they are all products of unreliable science, which is clearly just made up, so none of the technology must work. Oh wait, it does work. And we DO apply evolutionary knowledge in modern medicine to help develop vaccines and treatments, but lets pretend it doesn't exist and that it's just an old wives tale. Bronze age myths are the REAL truth.

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Sorry my friend but I disagree: if the universe has been created by intelligent design (the fine tuning in your video) then there wouldn't be any deadly disease or it wouldn't be fine tuning. Look at us, so frail and so dependent on others and the environment, surely a creator wouldn't have made us so fragile and prone to pain?

And even assuming a creator made us with lots of errors, surely he/she would have fixed all mistakes and not leave the universe so imperfect it turns on itself and all that inhabit it.. just like you would do with a piece of art.

see, a lot of the problem here is that people keep assuming we are the epitome of nature. the human species is not the grand finale of evolution nor has this planet/solar system/galaxy taken its last bow. far from it.

a reply to: thinline

You are misusing Occam's Razor here. For one you are looking at the finished product of the universe, life, and the planets and looking at the odds of them getting here, when you need to be looking from the beginning and going from there. If the numbers were changed some, then what would be in our sector of the universe would just be something different. Depending on the variable we changed, would make bigger changes to us. It is a ripple effect similar to the Butterfly Effect. That is because we are the result of untold billions upon billions of incremental changes added up from the beginning of the universe to today. The universe didn't start with the objective to make us on planet earth. We were just a happy accident resulting from the right circumstances aligning to bring us about.

Oh and by the way, if it can happen then given long enough and enough time it WILL happen. In fact, keep expanding time and space and it will happen again and again. Theoretically, if the universe is old enough and large enough there could be another earth out there.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Yep, absolutely correct.... and there will never be an epitome of nature, because everything under the sun keeps on changing according to needs or faults.

I believe that all the secrets of life can be learned simply from observing life itself. For example, the life and death of a flower. It is seeded by the wind or another life form (bee's, etc). It requires the sun and water to grow. It provides food and oxygen for other life forms while it lives. When it dies it becomes fertilizer to help another plant grow in it's place.

Larger ecosystems work in a similar fashion including the universe itself. The universe was born (how or why we don't know yet), then stars are born, which provide life. Eventually the stars die, creating black holes or supernovas, which helps recycle the surrounding planets/matter into other star systems. This process continues for billions of years until all stars die. After that, the universe collapses on itself and the big bang starts over again.

So, no matter if we're in a simulation or not, eventually all will end and be reborn again...for eternity.

originally posted by: thinline
On the flip side, what are the odds of the sun igniting at its current location with its current size and heat displacement? The odds of the Earth taking up orbit in its current trajectory? The odds of the moon being where it is? The odds of Jupiter being located where it is and having the proper mass to help the Earth out.



On the other hand, The odds of the sun and the rest of the universe developed organically where we know they are located, is a super huge number. It's super huge before we even begin factoring in life and that live changing and evolving to create you and me. The odds are better that your favorite celebrity crush will knock on your door.

The odds of all of that stuff happening is infinitesimal. Not non-existent.
And the Universe is infinitely massive. It's so massive none of our measly brains can even comprehend how truly vast it is. When people say "The Universe is everything," we envision our Universe sitting in a miscellaneous blackness, when in fact there is nothing outside of our Universe. Because it's everything.
Similarly, the Universe has always existed. Because before there was a Universe there was no time. So, let's put these two fact together...

Infinite mass + infinite time = INFINITE POSSIBILITY

If there is a chance it can exist, chances are it does exist. No matter how slim the likelihood, if it's only 1 in a-number-we've-not-invented-yet, it can happen.

If one theory is probable and the other theory has odds so long, it would probably take your whole life to write It down to the last digit. Would not Occam's razor dictate that the only reason I can write this post from my house was because my surrounding and myself were created and the same reason applies to why you can read this....

The only theory that has odds so long is yours. Have you ever used any software in your life? We aren't capable of creating competent operating systems, never mind an entire simulation of the Universe. I'm still waiting for patches for games from years ago.

a reply to: JackofBlades

When people say "The Universe is everything," we envision our Universe sitting in a miscellaneous blackness, when in fact there is nothing outside of our Universe. Because it's everything.

We don't actually know that. There is this small circle we call "the observable universe" and outside of that, we don't know much except what we can reasonably infer from what we have seen.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: thinline

Your attempt at philosophy falls apart with this: if we were created, who created our creator? Where did our creator come from?

The complexities required within such an answer make the Occams Razor analysis on "Creation vs evolution" almost silly.

I don't like this argument. The same would apply to non-creation theories too, no? So it's a redundant point.

Isn't "God" the name we have given to the thing that transcends infinity, the alpha and omega. The thing that started it all. That's the whole point isn't it?

When it comes down to it, you have two options: there was a beginning, which we call "God", or , there was no beginning and infinity beget infinity for infinity.

originally posted by: Dem0nc1eaner
I don't like this argument. The same would apply to non-creation theories too, no? So it's a redundant point.

Isn't "God" the name we have given to the thing that transcends infinity, the alpha and omega. The thing that started it all. That's the whole point isn't it?

When it comes down to it, you have two options: there was a beginning, which we call "God", or , there was no beginning and infinity beget infinity for infinity.

Not really. Those aren't the only possibilities. The point he was making was that people use god as a cop out so they don't have to explain anything. You can guess that god caused the big bang if you want. The whole infinity thing is pure assumption. We don't know that anything ever is infinite. The argument about who created the creator is legit, because their primary argument is that the universe requires a beginning and therefor cause for the big bang. If the universe requires a cause and cannot be eternal, then the same standard must hold true for god. He didn't just emerge out of thin air. You cannot say that the universe logically requires a creator if 1. you can't explain it, and 2. if god does not require an origin. It's a self defeating argument. Assumptions that personify god or give him attributes like "all powerful" and "infinite" are fairytales. There is no evidence.

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

"Transcends infinity" its funny to think anything can transcend something that is by definition limitless. Let's stay in the realm of reason now shall we?

a reply to: thinline
I think I get your rundown. You're saying the odds that every variable necessary for life to exist here on Earth would align properly to make it so are so--unbelievably--slim, it's more likely we're living in VR created by some other intelligence(s).

It's the same argument christians use. They say it's so infinitely unlikely for us to exist that a creator must be responsible.

My contention is we could be the only species in the entire universe and quite naturally our existence would seem to us almost implausible--after careful examination and study--given the odds are so against it. But to think we--at this point in time--can conclude life is rare is a great exaggeration. We've only landed people on one other body in the solar system and have only tentatively explored Mars for life. There're 160+ moons in our solar system!!! Billions of other stars in our galaxy!!! Perhaps billions or trillions of rogue planets in our galaxy!!! It's only because we haven't yet discovered ET--especially intelligent ET's which Fermi's Paradox suggests should have already colonized our galaxy--that we assume it's rare and thus are encouraged to entertain things like a creator God.

But in all honestly both can be true. Evolution and god can coexist. Evolution might be a tool God uses. Yet evolution implies life might emerge and gain complexity on its own. It at least emerged (or was created?) on Earth and appears to evolve and get more complex. We only need to observe life emerging somewhere to confirm it can on its own. But even if we were to observe it, God or a creator might still reside behind the scenes.

originally posted by: thinline
This post is regarding me, the poster and you, the reader. How did we get to where we are now?

With Moore's law which basically states. that computer power doubles within two years , how far are we away from copying our brains to another platform. Living, from our perspective, in a VR world?

What does the first have to do with the second? It will take more than computer power to transfer our consciousness, a phenomenon we have no clue as to what it even is, to another medium.

originally posted by: thinlineWhen this technology comes about. Do you think everyone would want to start in this 'time' period? Especially if you can play multiple times?

If "they" can "play" multiple times, this should increase their willingness to "start out" in any particular time period, surely?

originally posted by: thinlineIs it hard to fathom that this is not the first time this technology came into being? That the world we create with out tech was not created by someone else''a tech, kind of like a M.C. escher picture.

About as hard-fathomed as Eschers pictures I would guess, but hard to compare, since one is a picture and the other a forum post.

originally posted by: thinlineRight now, I would say, the odds are in favor of Brain transfer technology and a VR world happens then doesn't happen.

Sounds good, I will contact my transhumanist bookie ASAP.

On the flip side, what are the odds of the sun igniting at its current location with its current size and heat displacement? The odds of the Earth taking up orbit in its current trajectory? The odds of the moon being where it is? The odds of Jupiter being located where it is and having the proper mass to help the Earth out.

Oh man, oh god, oh man. We are going to be rich! As long as jupiter keeps helping us out... damn...

The odds do suggest, that downloading our brain pattern to another device is more probable then not.

Sounds good, mate!

On the other hand, The odds of the sun and the rest of the universe developed organically where we know they are located, is a super huge number.

If by "super huge number " you mean it is unlikely, then yes, this is true. But any other configuration would have been just as unlikely, no?

Not sure at all what you mean by "organically". This term is usually used in relation to animals and plants.

The odds are better that your favorite celebrity crush will knock on your door.

This is absolutely correct. But not for the reason you imply.

The number of possible timelines in our universe where "your" favourite celebrity crush knocks on "your" door is certainly greater than the number of timelines in which our universe develops organically in exactly the very spot we know it to be now.

If one theory is probable and the other theory has odds so long, it would probably take your whole life to write It down to the last digit. Would not Occam's razor dictate that the only reason I can write this post from my house was because my surrounding and myself were created and the same reason applies to why you can read this....

Short answer: no.

Long answer: ain't nobody got time for this.

P.S: Here is an actual, bona fide reply to the last quote, just a special bonus to you, my friend:

If one theory is probable and the other theory has odds so long, it would probably take your whole life to write It down to the last digit.

You have not analyzed theories or "odds" in any way, you are just saying one answer is really unlikely and the other is ok. "It would probably take your whole life"? Are you serious? Have you no love for truth?

Would not Occam's razor dictate that the only reason I can write this post from my house was because my surrounding and myself were created and the same reason applies to why you can read this....

It would dictate this.

Or it would not.

Occams Razor is not an Oracle, it is not a source of existential or spiritual truth.

It's just a science tool, ok? A conversational piece.

Quite like the Bible, you can make it say just what you want it to.