Finland Instructs Nearly a Million Military Reservists

a reply to: kitzik

That is what Media ( those big houses mentioned before ) wants you to think. About transponders activity is recorded and pretty much open source to all of us. Like Flghtradar.. planes you see there have their transponders tuned on... otherwise they would not been seen. There are close calls and those close calls involving commercial airlines and military aircraft are not secret either as those all are recorded in logs and black boxes.

If there are issues like Russia denying it, there are once again recorded data what happened, and if Russia would ask about the recorded data it woud be provided to them. So next question is why Russia has not asked for data ?

a reply to: dollukka

So next question is why Russia has not asked for data ?

Because Russia doesn't feel like she is on the bench of some court and should ask evidences from the prosecutor.
They have their own data, and mostly denying all western allegations. Asking to prove that you are not guilty from the prosecution is half step admitting that you are guilty.

Are you contempt with such answer ? But this dialog will be going just like this further.

O'k lets' finish this bickering, it doesn't lead anywhere.

a reply to: kitzik

Intresting.. Why not show the world that they are wrong? Instead, let things escalate.

Dinner time for me..

a reply to: dollukka

Yes, may be interesting. Like western data can not be fabricated ? Why you need to seek the proof of your innocence from the court that you don't recognize ? You have your own data, and the West is not recognizing it, so why you should instead rely on them, when seeking the truth ?
At the moment it stays word versus word, no one is recognizing the other party as superior in the imaginary court.

a reply to: stumason

I can tell that many are not happy to go along with Nato. But same can be said about EU, to me it always have seemed as one sided opinion, we hate EU but same time everybody is oh well we are here so what to do.. But they curse other countries like Greece for instance when Finland gave huge amounts of money to save their banks or something, all while Finland have huge unemployed rates, public services gets cuts all the time and many other ways to spend those moneys inside the country.

a reply to: kitzik

You are very good twisting things. Data there is available to Russia if Russia asks for it and making allegations like that one ( missing transponders ) actually needs hard evidence to support it, what happens in cockpits in planes are well recorded and blackbox data requirements are 25 hours recording as minimum. What is your point ?

a reply to: dollukka

Ok, here is semi official Russian response. I'm saying semi official, cause I haven't seen anything like this official in Russian language lol, but let's take this quote from USA today as final transponders answer.

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said Sunday the military aircraft was operating in compliance with rules governing international airspace and was flying at a safe distance from routes used by civilian flights.

"There were no prerequisites for an air accident," he said in a statement carried by Russian news agencies.

Konashenkov said the number of flights by NATO warplanes along Russia's borders has tripled in recent months, and a NATO reconnaissance plane was flying between the Russian aircraft and the passenger jet on Friday. NATO aircraft also fly in international air space with their transponders switched off, he said.

www.usatoday.com...

So, what Russia is saying that Nato doing same things. Should USA/Nato ask from Russia the proof that transponders were off ? I'm genuinely asking this question, as you don't understand that Russia doesn't feel to be obliged seeking innocence from US black boxes.

The main difference is that you are not reading thousands of articles how US spy planes doing same thing over and over.
Russians are not such whiners.

a reply to: kitzik

So if you see someone stealing candy and do it yourself too and when you are caught in action you think you will get "free out of jail" card because someone else "did it" too... so wrong.
Transponders are off when plane is not seen in commercial radar.. Commercial radar and flight logs together are excellent proof in incidents. Why would they need to ask Russia when commercial radar and data shows it clearly? The point is that Russia is unable to prove them wrong and if they had a case they would ask for that data.
Don´t give me that obligation crap as not all those countries were NATO countries.

a reply to: dollukka

Why would they need to ask Russia when commercial radar and data shows it clearly?

I'm getting tired to explain you obvious things. Let's take official Russian explanation. I'm not even in the know what really happening, but I'm trying to show you my analogy and you are either unable to see my logic or don't want to.

Russia is saying that US/Nato doing same thing ( please, let's not dive into what is Nato ), just for the sake of simplicity, assume that other side accusing in the same wrong doing. Now, you are asking me why Russia doesn't prove through western data, that they have done nothing particularly wrong. They just boldly denying that there was a threat and accusing the US/Nato (opposing side) in doing the same. Does USA asking Russian data to prove that what Russia says about US planes is a lie ? - No. So, why should Russia prove their innocence asking western data ? And this is what you are demanding, and your demand is based just on the fact that western media making more fuss about russian violations. Do you see my logic now ?

In conclusion, as i said before, we have a situation of a "word versus word". Western "word" is published and copy pasted thousand times more.
But this fact alone is not sufficient to demand that Russia will concede in this imaginary court. There is no "high court" objective enough, would you ask from aliens or god to do this job ? Every black box data is vulnerable to tampering if you don't have full control of the whole procedure extracting this data. There is no trust and no real answer to this.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: seagull

The local Geography certainly helps!

But with the Swiss, just bottle them up in their mountain fortresses - they'll run out of Muesli before long! No need to even invade, just camp outside and block all the entrances

Perhaps you are forgetting airlifts?

a reply to: kitzik

Get my point this is not about NATO this is about Airspace security incidents involving Russian military aircrafts. Do not pull NATO to this now ( i know you want to have an excuse ) as not all countries were NATO countries where these incidents has happened during last year by russian military aircrafts.
Sweden is not a NATO country and there is several cases where Russian military aircraft has turned off their transponders near swedish airspace.
This is not about NATO / Russian relations, it is about airspace safety and agreements which all should follow.

a reply to: dollukka

did you get this quote ?

and a NATO reconnaissance plane was flying between the Russian aircraft and the passenger jet on Friday.

So, if Finnish or Swedish airplanes don't dare do it, they should be exempt from some danger ?

Because baltic area is congested and russian airspace in far east is not ? and the accident can happen only between russian airliner and american jet ? This would be fair, but the reality is tougher, and even that Finland and Sweden are not in official Nato block they get hurt. Just because Baltic is congested and is important for Russia too, obvious reasons. One they need to fly to Kaliningrad, that is like a Russian Island in the western world bounded by Baltic Sea and various Nato, and not aligned countries.

a reply to: dollukka

Yes, I know. I was being sarcastic.

The very notion of Finland invading Russia is so absurd as to beggar the imagination.

a reply to: kitzik

Im not interested what NATO planes does as it doesn´t explain why Russia military airplaned did violate finnish airspace 4 times last August, 2 was near Porvoo , other was near Hanko and third one was near Loviisa ( loviisa has one of our nuclear plants.. just a side notice ) and one week later there were another incident.

In Porvoo case Russian plane Antonev AN 26 stayed in finnish airspace 3 minutes inside finnish maritime area. In second time Russian aircraft stayed inside our maritime area couple minutes.

Hanko case was somewhat forgiven due bad weather and expected that Russian aircraft was avoiding storm cloud

Loviisa case happened about same time as Hanko case, this time Russian military aircraft stayed 28 km inside our borders. Russian explanation was navigation problems and bad weather and it was obvious that arrogant Russian pilot didn´t give a rats behind to orders to identify themselves. Russian plane was escorted away from our country

About weather as an excuse, in this decade when weather forecasts are so accurate its somewhat ridiculous claim as all flights are well planned beforehand ( Maybe not in Russia ? )

Last year alone there has been more incidents than last 50 years together. In 2005 Finland made a policy that all airspace and maritime area violations in our area are public information. So i could dig out more. Finnish airplanes go and identify violators and make sure they leave our airspace.

a reply to: seagull

After WWII that was rendered as a fact in Russian history books until Russian President Boris Yeltsin acknowledged in 1998 that the Soviet Union was guilty of Mainila shots.
All those decades the history books in Russia were fabricated and rendered different "thruth".

a reply to: dollukka

I've read that. The poor innocent Soviets were attacked, and had to defend themselves... I'm amazed that anyone outside of the Soviet Union believed that...

Propaganda is a wonderful thing.

a reply to: dollukka

I can't comment on those accidents. You know geography probably better, Finnish Gulf is a narrow straight. The gap between Tallin and Helsinki is just 88 km. After you subtract both countries maritime zone international corridor for flying from mainland Russia towards Europe, Kaliningrad is really narrow. There is no other way Russia can fly using only international airspace, bad weather can be excuse, and probably mistakes will happen. In the current geopolitical climate Russia can not leave Kaliningrad undefended.

a reply to: kitzik

maritime areas are about 22 km from coastlines, so that between Tallinn and Helsinki area there are still 44 km wide international area to fly and sail. International etiquette is that entering someones space permission is asked in no cases Russia asked one ! Big difference !

a reply to: dollukka

still 44 km

44 km is not a lot when they also need to avoid common civilian corridor traffic.
And bad weather is happening very often in that area. I'm not giving complete carte blanche to everything what Russia is doing there, but I can find plausible explanations of those accidents. Also, most of the time they do not enter sovereign airspace. I remember a couple of pages ago you yourself said that Russia is not violating Finnish airspace.

a reply to: kitzik

And a very good reason to keep transponders on.. not off What i said i have not stated that they have before here on ATS.. to be clear


Quoting myself here

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: kitzik


I have never said Russia has violated our airspace, i have only said that they have not had their transponders on as it should..