NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Thank you ... Sorry if I sound dumb but it helps give a fuller picture of how things came to be as they are in the USA

a reply to: masqua

And some who remained loyal to the French too. Both Britain and France gained much profit from the sale and labour of slavery.

And they never taught us that when I went to school ... I wonder why ... says I sarcastically

My question about the Native American peoples being represented has not been answered
Were they also considered citizens in the founding of the US or a nation/s within a Nation ?

a reply to: artistpoet

That's what you meant? Sorry, guess I misunderstand your question. No, they weren't. The phrase "All men are created equal" really meant "All rich, land owning, English speaking, white men are created equal", and the word men in the second phrase is literally talking about the male gender while now the phrase is meant to be bi-gendered.

Native Americans weren't even really considered people. The nation was literally rigged to make their lives as hard as possible using racism like calling them savages and uncivilized (then using that same racism to prevent them from integrating into white society). To be honest, the Natives are the most stepped on minority class in the country (WAY eclipsing blacks by a wide margin). At least blacks eventually got recognition. The native population has been SO decimated by white racism that they have no way to organize to bring about reparations for the sins of the past. It is truly a sad situation for them.

Edit: There were even Native slaves, but they are largely not talked about when discussing American Slavery despite being literally enslaved from the first day Europeans stepped foot in the Americas (Yes, Christopher Columbus was a slaver).

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Cheers Krazysh0t for clearing that up
I am better informed now


Edit to add ... but feel saddened for the plight of the Native Americans ...

a reply to: artistpoet

Overall they were viewed as savages and many despised them. They didn't have the right to vote until 1924. The US had a policy of Indian removal east of the Mississippi River. During the Colonial period there were numerous wars with indigenous populations and several massacres.

Those are some dark chapters in American history that has blighted our claim to morality. Most Americans choose to forget that part of our history, but it definitely happened.

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Cheers Krazysh0t for clearing that up
I am better informed now

There is ONE founding father though (who I greatly admire, for more reasons than what I'm about to list) who looked past all the racism and thought of the "savages" as actually more civilized than the Europeans. He even wrote an essay about it.

Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America

a reply to: artistpoet

American Indians weren't considered a "nation within a nation" until, The Indian Reorganization Act in 1934. They had tried reservations in the past, but then went to individual land parcels before going to the current system.

in 1901, Teddy Roosevelt said of the Allotments:

“In my judgment the time has arrived when we should definitely make up our minds to recognize the Indian as an individual and not as a member of a tribe. The General Allotment Act is a mighty pulverizing engine to break up the tribal mass.”

It was his distant cousin, Franklin Roosevelt, who finally put to law the current system, and corrected the folly in thinking displayed above.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Thanks for the further info ... We of the UK (British Empire) have our historical shame too
Though the generation alive today are not to blame ... still it is important to learn the lessons of history

Sorry for drifting off topic

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Cheers for that ... I am reading it now

To say that the US is not a "Christian Nation" is correct in the sense that there are no laws saying "you MUST be a Christian" - however, it cannot be denied that the US was FOUNDED by Christians...who envisioned a place of INDIVIDUAL Freedom, where everyone was free to worship as they wished. It is somewhat disingenuous to use this fact to somehow intimate that the Founders' religious beliefs didn't figure into what was included in the Founding Documents....in the same way that the Constitution of the Country of Jordan provides the freedom to worship as you wish (except for the stipulation that the ruling Monarch must be a Muslim and have Muslim parents), but their Constitution is certainly based on Islamic principles. The founding documents and principles of the US are most certainly based on the principles of the Christian faith...the Christian faith of the 18th century.
Using the latest data, about 71% of US citizens identify themselves as Christian - with the second largest group identifying themselves as Atheist or having no religious preference, followed by Islam at third. The big issue here is that the PROTECTION of religious worship that the CHRISTIAN Founders of the US wrote into the Bill of Rights is constantly used as the basis for anti- Christian (ie-anti-majority) efforts within the US. I remind everyone reading this that the words "separation of Church and State" do NOT appear in ANY of the Founding Documents of the US, and we do NOT live in a Country where you are required to subscribe to a particular religion - but we certainly observe Christian Holidays and follow Judeo-Christian ethics in the observance of our Laws.
Lastly - in the US, there's NO ONE (yet) beheading anyone who will not convert to a particular religion...but I challenge the OP to try and write a similar piece about a hard line Islamic Country (like Iran, etc) and see how long it takes for some religious zealot to take you to task over your position....be GRATEFUL that you live in a Country founded by Christians.
I quote the fictitious omnipotent character "Q" from Star Trek:TNG - May whatever God you believe in have mercy on your soul

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I was stressing that it wasn't Christian. Supporting the premise of the thread that we're not a Christian nation. Now if we were discussing whether God should be in there at all, that's another subject and you'd find I'm decidedly on your side in that.

a reply to: artistpoet

On the NA question:

“Andrew Jackson was a wealthy slave owner and infamous Indian killer, gaining the nickname ‘Sharp Knife’ from the Cherokee,” writes Amargi on the website Unsettling America: Decolonization in Theory & Practice. “He was also the founder of the Democratic Party, demonstrating that genocide against indigenous people is a nonpartisan issue. His first effort at Indian fighting was waging a war against the Creeks. President Jefferson had appointed him to appropriate Creek and Cherokee lands. In his brutal military campaigns against Indians, Andrew Jackson recommended that troops systematically kill Indian women and children after massacres in order to complete the extermination. The Creeks lost 23 million acres of land in southern Georgia and central Alabama, paving the way for cotton plantation slavery. His frontier warfare and subsequent ‘negotiations’ opened up much of the southeast U.S. to settler colonialism.”
Read more at indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com...

But, regardless of these kinds of facts, the traditions of the Native American peoples, and their capabilities as fighters, did much to form what could be called the ‘soul’ of America. Just take note that the eagle is shared as a national symbol by both settlers and natives today.

a reply to: artistpoet

Oops, wrong button.

The pilgrims were Puritans. That was their religion. They came here to escape religious persecution by the Angelican church of England.
They didn't come to start a new nation. They were clearly fine with being British.

originally posted by: TSZodiac
...but we certainly observe Christian Holidays and follow Judeo-Christian ethics in the observance of our Laws.

Our laws are based on the Lex Romanus and English Law, not Mosaic Law.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord
I didn't state that was the sole issue.

I stated that the "separation of church and state" has been distorted to mean something it is not.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The Amish'religion is Christian. Not Amish. The name of their Christian sect is Mennonite. Many people believe that the Mennonites broke away from the Amish because they were too strict but it was the other way around. The Amish broke off from the Mennonites because they thought they were not strict enough.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Wow a great read indeed ... It reminds me of the old non Christian Clans of Scotland in their treatment of strangers
I say non Christian as such clans had their own stories and beliefs handed down by way of mouth/myth

But so as to not upset Christians ... This way of treating strangers is also a teaching by way of stories in their faith also
The good Samaritan comes to mind

Whilst on a long stay in Canada last year ... I read several books which recorded speeches of Native American Chiefs
Also learnt many things from my Canadian friends
I know it was not all roses and rainbows but was greatly impressed with the wisdom I found
I am equally impressed by this letter of Benjamin Franklin
Such fair mindedness for me is the true foundation of civilised nation

Thanks again for your link

originally posted by: TSZodiac
To say that the US is not a "Christian Nation" is correct in the sense that there are no laws saying "you MUST be a Christian" - however, it cannot be denied that the US was FOUNDED by Christians...who envisioned a place of INDIVIDUAL Freedom, where everyone was free to worship as they wished. It is somewhat disingenuous to use this fact to somehow intimate that the Founders' religious beliefs didn't figure into what was included in the Founding Documents....in the same way that the Constitution of the Country of Jordan provides the freedom to worship as you wish (except for the stipulation that the ruling Monarch must be a Muslim and have Muslim parents), but their Constitution is certainly based on Islamic principles. The founding documents and principles of the US are most certainly based on the principles of the Christian faith...the Christian faith of the 18th century.

The founding documents of the US are based on English Parliamentary rule (minus a king, but that wasn't for the lack of trying. George Washington was almost named king for life except he didn't want that title) as well as the Indian Six Nations Confederacy.

Just because the founding fathers were largely Christian doesn't mean that the nation was founded on Christian precepts.

Using the latest data, about 71% of US citizens identify themselves as Christian - with the second largest group identifying themselves as Atheist or having no religious preference, followed by Islam at third. The big issue here is that the PROTECTION of religious worship that the CHRISTIAN Founders of the US wrote into the Bill of Rights is constantly used as the basis for anti- Christian (ie-anti-majority) efforts within the US. I remind everyone reading this that the words "separation of Church and State" do NOT appear in ANY of the Founding Documents of the US, and we do NOT live in a Country where you are required to subscribe to a particular religion - but we certainly observe Christian Holidays and follow Judeo-Christian ethics in the observance of our Laws.

There are no Christian holidays that are officially sanctioned by the state.

Lastly - in the US, there's NO ONE (yet) beheading anyone who will not convert to a particular religion...but I challenge the OP to try and write a similar piece about a hard line Islamic Country (like Iran, etc) and see how long it takes for some religious zealot to take you to task over your position....be GRATEFUL that you live in a Country founded by Christians.
I quote the fictitious omnipotent character "Q" from Star Trek:TNG - May whatever God you believe in have mercy on your soul

This is irrelevant. For one, there ARE Muslim countries where you won't be beheaded for not being Muslim and for two, those countries are theocracies. They are examples of EXACTLY what our founding fathers were trying to avoid when they drafted the Constitution. And don't pretend like Christians wouldn't engage in this activity if this country were a Christian theocracy. We already have evidence in the past of Christians using a theocracy to judge and execute people based on theocratic law.

The Salem Witch trials were the result of Christianity run amok where most of the people hung (not beheaded, but no better way to go) were done so based on hearsay (not to mention, who cares if you are a witch or not?).

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Yes....Church, capital letter based Church. A single Church.
Not a separation of religious natures or spiritual natures.
There is a huge difference.

If it were a separation of religion, it would have been "church", not "Church".