Freddie Gray's Death Ruled a Homicide; 6 Officers Charged!

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?

The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)

Superior to inferior was what I was pondering. Could that also hypothetically apply to the spine trama? Just a question I know better than to make a bold statement that is what happened. I repeatedly said that is my theory and I will wait until the medical examiners report comes out. I'm in no way looking for confirmation I would just like to know if there is any validity to my assumption.

Even if the answer is a no I might have changed the subject from the topic of the last two pages.

Certainly. Compression, superior to inferior, are the most comment type of vertebral body fractures--like a slinky or an accordion--the vertebrae are crushed from the top down. That could also compress the larynx

The one thing that is abundantly clear in this thread is there are innumerable possibilities as to how his injury occurred. I noticed you have only been trying to provide information and not make a judgment. And the reality of the situation is everyone on this thread including me is speculating in the absence of the medical examiner's autopsy.

a reply to: marg6043

I have to agree also, if Gray was an habitual user and he had a record to confirm, he will have substances in his body, no doubt about it.

Then you're not agreeing with me - all I said was anything is possible

How fast people want to arrive at the conclusions they want to - er - conclude

I don't see it as a leak but a fact actually.

See what I mean? It's a leak - NOT a fact. You're presupposing:

FOX NEWS BOMBSHELL! Freddie Gray tested positive for HEROIN and POT, cops saw him DEALING DRUGS! Read more: therightscoop.com...

Sean Hannity interviewed someone identifying himself as a Baltimore cop who says the preliminary toxicology report on Freddie Gray tested positive for heroin and marijuana. Further, contrary to early reports, the cop says that he was observed in a possible drug deal before the cops tried to apprehend him.

Read more: therightscoop.com...

Oh, my...the Cops say it was drugs....and they would know - right? No bias there - from an anonymous cop no less

:-)

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: windword

You need an autopsy report to determine, legally, cause of death. That report is whats being used to charge the officers.
try again.

No, not necessarily. Grey may have died from cardiac arrest. That has nothing to do with the culpability of the perpetrators.

It really does not matter if he ultimately died of a cardiac arrest, or pulmonary embolus, or pneumonia, or sepsis (all common causes of death in the quadriplegic). The person or persons who made him a quad still bear the ultimate responsability. People have been convicted of murder a long time after the initial injury that ultimately resulted in death. I'd posit that a week is not enough time to separate the initial injury from the final demise.

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?

The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)

Superior to inferior was what I was pondering. Could that also hypothetically apply to the spine trama? Just a question I know better than to make a bold statement that is what happened. I repeatedly said that is my theory and I will wait until the medical examiners report comes out. I'm in no way looking for confirmation I would just like to know if there is any validity to my assumption.

Even if the answer is a no I might have changed the subject from the topic of the last two pages.

Certainly. Compression, superior to inferior, are the most comment type of vertebral body fractures--like a slinky or an accordion--the vertebrae are crushed from the top down. That could also compress the larynx

The one thing that is abundantly clear in this thread is there are innumerable possibilities as to how his injury occurred. I noticed you have only been trying to provide information and not make a judgment. And the reality of the situation is everyone on this thread including me is speculating in the absence of the medical examiner's autopsy.

Thank you so very much for understanding that I've only been trying to explain things to my fellow ATS members.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I find it really strange that during the whole video, the police are not fighting with him. The only ones making a fuss are the onlookers.

Freddie Gray is not shackled at the ankles at that time they drag him to the van. They have him in the standard position, which is what they always do.

Legality of arrests and police procedures

Arrest in Public In most non-emergency cases, a law enforcement officer must present a warrant to be able to arrest a suspect at a home. If, however, the officer sees a suspect in a public place and feels that he has probable cause, he may make the arrest without a warrant. After arrest, the suspect must go before a judge for a "Gerstein hearing." In the Supreme Court case, Gerstein v. Pugh, the court held that where there has been a substantial pretrial restraint on a suspect's liberty, a prompt judicial determination must be made within 48 hours. The hearing allows the judge to rule on probable cause after an arrest without a warrant. Read more : www.ehow.com...

If he ran, then the police chased him, there was probable cause.

But the question is this, IF he had a crushed larynx, HOW could he yell for an inhaler?



OK, he is yelling at the time they pick him up, so how is his larynx crushed?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: NavyDoc

I find it really strange that during the whole video, the police are not fighting with him. The only ones making a fuss are the onlookers.

Freddie Gray is not shackled at the ankles at that time they drag him to the van. They have him in the standard position, which is what they always do.

Legality of arrests and police procedures

Arrest in Public In most non-emergency cases, a law enforcement officer must present a warrant to be able to arrest a suspect at a home. If, however, the officer sees a suspect in a public place and feels that he has probable cause, he may make the arrest without a warrant. After arrest, the suspect must go before a judge for a "Gerstein hearing." In the Supreme Court case, Gerstein v. Pugh, the court held that where there has been a substantial pretrial restraint on a suspect's liberty, a prompt judicial determination must be made within 48 hours. The hearing allows the judge to rule on probable cause after an arrest without a warrant. Read more : www.ehow.com...

If he ran, then the police chased him, there was probable cause.

But the question is this, IF he had a crushed larynx, HOW could he yell for an inhaler?

OK, he is yelling at the time they pick

him up, so how is his larynx crushed?

He couldnt, which is why that particular injury had to have happened after.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I bet then to you, and anybody here, that they will find some substances in his toxicology report, how about that.

Will this change the fact that he was a victim of police excessive brutality? no, but that I expect a lot of the charges against the police dismissed, yes, will all the police officers involved walk out after trial, probably.

That is my opinion.

I guess I did misunderstood your post

a reply to: WarminIndy

OK, he is yelling at the time they pick him up, so how is his larynx crushed?

It wasn't .... yet.
He didn't have a severed spinal cord at that point either.
There were more stops to make and necks to break, at that point.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Are we in agreement then? All the necessary information as to Grey's medical condition, including his toxicology report, xrays, etc., would have been done by hospital staff on Feb 12, the day he was arrested and admitted to the hospital.....and that the actual cause of death, as well as whatever drugs may have been in his system at the time of death, are not important to this case?

a reply to: marg6043

I guess I did misunderstood your post

You totally did - it happens

:-)

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Are we in agreement then? All the necessary information as to Grey's medical condition, including his toxicology report, xrays, etc., would have been done by hospital staff on Feb 12, the day he was arrested and admitted to the hospital.....and that the actual cause of death, as well as whatever drugs may have been in his system at the time of death, are not important to this case?

No. They are all important to the case because they have to do with how he got where he was. If they show that somone, even himsf or the cops or whomever, put him into the position where he died, then they bear the responsability of his death.

All of that other information is vital in determining culpability and should not be disregarded. Facts are important.

I don't know what sort of work up he had when he was admitted, I wasn't there nor do I have the records, however, logically, the information one gets closest to an injury are very important.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You are basing your question on the assumption that the injury occurred prior to his placement in the van. Logic deems that question impossible to answer if the assumption never occurred.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Suffice it say, he died of the injuries sustained while in police custody. Those injuries should have been well documented by hospital staff, as well as Grey's toxicology on that day, enough so that a thorough investigation, based on obvious officer abuse, could be, and was launched.

When Freddie Grey died, the potential additional charges of murder/homicide were added to the list. But the investigation remains the same.

Whether Freddie Grey died or not, the officers still broke several laws, and, hopefully, would have been charged anyway. The fact that the victim died, just exacerbated the charges against the police officers. How he died is less important than the fact that he DID die from the injuries sustained while in police custody.

These are the facts of the case.

It doesn't matter whether he committed a crime or not, the police are not allowed to kill suspects, purposely or through negligence.

Police guard notorious prisoners in custody like their daughters' virtue but the same cannot be said about the average suspect.

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?

The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)

Superior to inferior was what I was pondering. Could that also hypothetically apply to the spine trama? Just a question I know better than to make a bold statement that is what happened. I repeatedly said that is my theory and I will wait until the medical examiners report comes out. I'm in no way looking for confirmation I would just like to know if there is any validity to my assumption.

Even if the answer is a no I might have changed the subject from the topic of the last two pages.

Here is an example of what you are getting at. I had a guy who ran over an IED in an armored MRAP. The blast, coming directly from below, did not penetrate the vehicle, but he was slammed directly upward and the top of his head struck the ceiling of the vehicle. He had two compression fractured vertebrae and a crushed larynx. (Remember the larynx is a stiff structure made of cartilage). They were all compressed from top to bottom and it was pretty obvious. He died of course.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Suffice it say, he died of the injuries sustained while in police custody. Those injuries should have been well documented by hospital staff, as well as Grey's toxicology on that day, enough so that a thorough investigation, based on obvious officer abuse, could be, and was launched.

When Freddie Grey died, the potential additional charges of murder/homicide were added to the list. But the investigation remains the same.

Whether Freddie Grey died or not, the officers still broke several laws, and, hopefully, would have been charged anyway. The fact that the victim died, just exacerbated the charges against the police officers. How he died is less important than the fact that he DID die from the injuries sustained while in police custody.

These are the facts of the case.

Those are not facts, those are positions. Of course, when one dies in ones care, one Bears responsability--however, we do not have enough to say it was murder, criminal negligence, or simple negligence, or just a ducked up situation at this time. A fair and impartial (if that is even possible at this time) trial would hopefully shed light on this.

How he died, or at least how he sustained the severe injury that led to his death, is EXTREMELY important because that is where we determine culpability and responsability. If you get hepatitis from shooting up, but die in my care, it's not my fault you had the hepitits that killed you, even if you were in my care, for example.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: WarminIndy

OK, he is yelling at the time they pick him up, so how is his larynx crushed?

It wasn't .... yet.
He didn't have a severed spinal cord at that point either.
There were more stops to make and necks to break, at that point.

Could it be possible, just a little tiny bit possible, that he had a prior neck injury that was exacerbated by this?

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: WarminIndy

You are basing your question on the assumption that the injury occurred prior to his placement in the van. Logic deems that question impossible to answer if the assumption never occurred.

I am basing this on the video.

Watch the video, he is yelling (his larynx obviously not crushed) all the way to the van. He then asks the driver for an inhaler (his larynx obviously not crushed).

What the video shows is the arrest, the officer doing the typical thing that we have seen on many episodes of COPS. Then he is lifted up, still yelling (larynx not crushed) and the whole time, the onlookers are yelling at the policemen that he looks paralyzed...before even being put in the van.

THAT is what I am basing this on.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I understand your position now. The wording was a little tricky and I assumed you were claiming he received the crushed larynx prior to placement in the van.

My apologies.

a reply to: NavyDoc

we do not have enough to say it was murder, criminal negligence, or simple negligence, or just a ducked up situation at this time. A fair and impartial (if that is even possible at this time) trial would hopefully shed light on this.

Well, the DA seems to think that she has enough to make her case, and the 6 six police officers stand accused, just like any other arrestee charged with a crime.

And, those are the facts, extremely simplified, as taken from the scathing indictment read at the press conference by State's Attorney Mosby, as she read "the facts" for public consumption.

The more we delve into the facts, the worse those facts begin to look for the police. These arguments, that Freddie could possibly have injured himself to the degree being reported, is nothing more than apologetic hyperbole to distract from the real issues of police abuses.