ABUSE CRISIS: ACLU : Bush Authorized Torture

Seekerof, That is more incriminating.

Why? because the Bush administration changed the law regarding the treatment of detainees when his administration redesign the Geneva convention and stripped them of protection.

Since the 9/11 the Bush administration has increased its executive power and the presidential power is unconstrained by law thanks to the patriot act.

See, we have allowed the powers of our government almost unlimited when it comes to the 'war on terror'.

And that in my opinion is going to turn against us the citizens of this country when the administration find it fit.

Irregardless, the claims of "a/an executive order" authorizing such has no crediability till it is proven to be legit. Again, this issue of such a claim has been floating since Abu Gharib, and none have proven such. The ACLU will prove nothing, just as you, and those who have claimed that the President indeed authorized such uses by way of the mysterious "executive order".

Let the speculations and allegations continue. They have thus far for almost a year.




seekerof

I think this thread is an exercise in torture, having to listen to soo much peacnick whining is causing me mental agony.

Some gental pressure to gain intelligence during a war, and this is the result? Boo hoo feel good for the bad guys capitulation?

Originally posted by Seekerof

Let the speculations and allegations continue. They have thus far for almost a year.

Well, because of Bush's decietfullness to the American public, this is the most we will probably get on him, so your right. The allegations will continue because the truth must be told, no matter if you want to hear it or not. Bush is a lier, a murderer, and now he is a terrorist for condoning torture. Truth hurts when it breaks down all you have believed in. I am sorry if this disturbs you in any way, but the truth is avalible for those that wish to seek it. The rest will be content just letting the attrocities happen in the name of American safety. Hitler accomplished his attrocities in much the same way.

Originally posted by CazMedia
I think this thread is an exercise in torture, having to listen to soo much peacnick whining is causing me mental agony.

Actually this thread has brought up a lot of concern and good issues on the part or our administration so is very unfair to call it names when most of the posters has done a very good job on "reading" and "researching" to make it a very interesting post.

Perhaps it should not hurt you to start from the begining and read the post and link to the articles.

You can learn a lot from it. and denied ignorance.

Originally posted by CazMedia
I think this thread is an exercise in torture, having to listen to soo much peacnick whining is causing me mental agony.

Some gental pressure to gain intelligence during a war, and this is the result? Boo hoo feel good for the bad guys capitulation?

Man, I dont care who the torture is happenning to. I care that it is our country, and president that is condoning these actions. This is supposed to be America, a place where everyone is on an equal playingfield with no obfuscation of ethics and standards entertained. We are supposed to be the people of the right. The people of peace and global respect. Bush is making a mockery of America and people like you are willing to let him do just that.

If your kid decided to rob a bank with his/her buddies, then was the only person to get caught, would you still feel this way if you child was tortured to find out who the accomplices were? Thats the road we are on if we dont stop the idiocy of the Bush cabal.


Edit: Goodnite all. Its late here and Im off to get some shut eye befor the madness starts tomorrow. Merry Christmass and have a wonderfull holiday to all on this thread and at ATS. Even you Seekerof

[edit on 12/24/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Seekerof
As per the topic of this thread, ACLU: Bush Authorized Torture, Kidfinger, I suppose your going to say next is that the President must have authorized this soldier, you described as happening at Gitmo, to do what he was doing? Maybe Rumsfield? The CIA? The FBI? The DoD? Someone other than himself authorizing such? Or was he acting independently?
seekerof

torture happened. (mind you, the police forces of america have a less than shining record for rubber hoses and whatnot, so it's not like it hasn't happened before, ....torture by americans, that is)
the FOIA(that is, a GOVERNMENT DOCUMENT, that was singled out SOMEHOW, as A. existing, and B. being relevent. singled out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of government documents. this implies someone was EXPECTING to find what they found. insider knowledge) is CLEARLY good evidence, and attempts to obfuscate this fact are nitpicky diversions. like pointing to a fly on the windshield as being problematic, just before a tractor trailer meets you in a head on collision.
the 'president' bush character has a long and tarnished record of coc aine abuse, alcohol abuse, rape charges, ELECTION FRAUD, poor grammar and poor grasp of logical syntax, and shady dealings(like 'kenny boy' lay, or osama bin laden's brother, or john hinckley, the who's who of infamy, basically). his grandfather helped finance the nazis. his father was head of the CIA, after allen dulles(evil nazi).
there is a clear pattern of torture being condoned by official bodies, even if it is 'merely' in a 'look the other way' fashion. it is the president of the united states CLEAR responsibility to do everything in his power to keep the external behaviour of 'america' in line with the internal PRINCIPALS of america. there is no way in hell that bush is ignorant of the 'flavour' of prisoner treatment. so, even IF he didn't actually sign an order(which i'm betting he DID, based on his record of immorality and hate-mongering), he at least KNOWS about it, and should be taking IMMEDIATE ACTION to stem the flow of moral degradation which eats at the souls of the american forces.
if he DOESN'T know, then a hard nosed right-winger shouldn't be defending his actions. this is GROSS INCOMPETANCE and grounds for IMMEDIATE DISMISSAL(or, it ought to be).

the only people who are defending him, are people who CONDONE TORTURE, condone the dissembly of the constitution, condone imprisonment without trial, condone pre-emptive strikes(also known as the 'sucker punch'), condone election fraud, condone secrecy, and the list goes on and on.....
nice.
if we could step back from what everyone else is doing, and look merely at ourselves(which, in a holographic universe model, means ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING), we would find that everything we do comes back to us. if you beat your wife, because you're a miserable asshole, the guilt of beating your wife will turn you into a miserable asshole. if you constantly harass other drivers on a highway, other drivers will begin to harass you. if you're constantly avoiding credit payments, you will be against legal forces which will try to take your money away. you can call it karma, if you like, or you can call it common sense.

in today's information overload enviroment, what matters more than truth(unforunately), is IMPRESSION. if the 'rest of the world' gets the impression that america is no longer wearing a white hat, many of the natural checks and balances that keep america safe(chiefly GOOD WILL) will have been removed.
the 'war on terror', is EFFECTIVELY a war FOR terror. this is just a natural simple law of human behaviour, and all the pointing to tiny details about legalities and symantics are like a sneeze in a hurricane.


OTTS had a great post that everyone should read. there is always a balance to be found between hardcore 'empaths' and hardcore 'hardcores'.

Originally posted by CazMedia
I think this thread is an exercise in torture, having to listen to soo much peacnick whining is causing me mental agony.

Some gental pressure to gain intelligence during a war, and this is the result? Boo hoo feel good for the bad guys capitulation?

a little typing spoonerism, perhaps? 'gental' pressure just needs 'i' and a military dog to be more than gentle.
and, let's see.... the 'bad guys' are the ones being tortured, and the 'good guys' are the torturers? maybe raping a young family member in front of the 'bad guy' would be effective. you HAVE to admit, that these altruistic types(bad guys) ALWAYS cave when their loved ones are threatened.

better a peacenik than appeasenik, joe reactive mind.

oh yeah, and wanh wah wah, boo hoo hoo, i feel sorry for people getting blown to pieces and tortured over power struggles of the elite rich .005% of the world. take that, appeasenik. i just 'tortured' you.
if i was closer, i might try something with skin peeling. or hot stuff. maybe some different kinds of corrosives? live creatures are always good. i like the cage full of starved rats they strap to your face. now THAT'S art! sewing some hungry insects under the skin should cause a WHOLE lot of 'mild discomfort'.
what the nasty 'right' seems to forget(along with EVERYTHING else), is that creativity stems from the 'left'. look out righties, because if you 'push the envelope' TOO far, you'll be up to your eyeballs in, .....well, ....YOUR EYEBALLS.



[edit on 24-12-2004 by billybob]

Marg scolds caz, (bad caz)

Actually this thread has brought up a lot of concern and good issues on the part or our administration so is very unfair to call it names when most of the posters has done a very good job on "reading" and "researching" to make it a very interesting post.

Ill agree that a lot of effort has been done to be accurate here, and that the discussion has been interesting,
BUT,
it all starts from the basic premise that the acts our government sanctions for use in intelligence gathering are somehow soo grievous that they should not be used....This is silly...the APPROVED methods (not real abuse as exhibited by a few at abu graib) are uncomfortable, but still pretty tame.
I fear the results of NOT having good intel...or do you want a repeate of 9-11?

Kid points the finger at Caz,

I care that it is our country, and president that is condoning these actions.

Yeah? Me too, and i agree with him....i want to know that everything possible short of abuse is done to ensure your safety, mine, our soldiers in the field etc.

Kid buys pie in sky here,

This is supposed to be America, a place where everyone is on an equal playingfield with no obfuscation of ethics and standards entertained.

Indeed that is the IDEAL for which we'd like to believe in, yet reality both for us and the rest of the world isnt conforming to this.
While id agree that striving twords this lofty goal is a noble pursuit, the nobles have to get their hands dirty as our enemies dont hesitate to use our LACK of use of "unfavorable" things against us.

Kid sets up his bush bash well,

We are supposed to be the people of the right. The people of peace and global respect. Bush is making a mockery of America and people like you are willing to let him do just that.

And overall we are and do, however peace is often earned, not given. The same with respect. While the civilized world may have respect for us slipping a bit, i think the radical muslim terrorists have a much better respect for us now that we are DEMANDING it. Did they respect us on 9-11? Secure the peace because otherwise your a TARGET. Why do you think bullys pick on the meek and weak? because picking on the strong or ones that will oppose you isnt nearly as lucrative.

Kid hypothosizes,

If your kid decided to rob a bank with his/her buddies, then was the only person to get caught, would you still feel this way if you child was tortured to find out who the accomplices were?

a huge YES here!!!

First of all, my kid would have been warned there were consequences if he commited these acts, and if he chose to violate them, he deserves the concequences...(id be dissapointed in him/her, but they still must learn and be accountable)

Second, If there were others running loose that were involved and my kid was holding out their wherabouts, id say "youve shown great loyalty, but where are your friends now? there letting you twist in the wind for them while they run free." I would certantly NOT want my kid to be scapegoated by "the man" and would expect that ALL guilty parties be held accountable equally. If my kid was still showing arrogance by claming up...id say he continues to deserve the fate he's making for hjimself...again heart breaking to know your kid is STUPID, but as id think that he could survive the approved techniques and they are not out of line, again..he made his bed.

Its not as if the extremist havnt been warned their behaivior is not acceptable,
If they get caught then they should know it will not be pleasent (but wont be deadly)and should tell all their friends how bad it sucked so that they might consider the consequences BEFORE they act up. (deterance is the basis for crimes/punishment system)

America has shown its soft side far too long, emboldening those that wish to harm us all to try more and more.
Flexing a little muscle (by not being whimps) sends the message that we will only tolorate so much before concequences ensue.

Do you think criminals like/respect the laws that say dont rob banks?
If they did, they wouldnt have robbed it in the first place (they didnt fear the concequences enough), yet you think by just being nice and saying NO dont do that, that they will just comply eh? Where is the deterance?

Originally posted by CazMedia

Do you think criminals like/respect the laws that say dont rob banks?
If they did, they wouldnt have robbed it in the first place (they didnt fear the concequences enough), yet you think by just being nice and saying NO dont do that, that they will just comply eh? Where is the deterance?

okay. what makes 'terrorists' different from bank criminals? you think this 'war on terror' will stop any fanatic who is willing to pay his life for what he sees as 'justice'? you think indiscriminatley killing a HUNDRED THOUSAND innocents will deter a genius fanatic from carrying out his plans against 'the man'? i would say he is much more likely to be even more fanatically empowered to carry out 'terror' on the 'enemy'.

you don't 'war for peace', you 'peace for peace'. anyone who's avoided as many bar brawls as i have KNOWS this.

p.s. the 'illuminati' shadow cabal executed nine one one, not 'fanatic muslims that hate our freedom'.
p.s.s. people who have everything they need, don't rob banks. THAT is the deterent for bank robbery.

Billybob says,

you don't 'war for peace', you 'peace for peace'. anyone who's avoided as many bar brawls as i have KNOWS this.

This is called diplomacy, and its great until the first punchs flies.
Like youve never encountered someone that wasnt taking "no" as an answer, or worse yet sucker punches you when your not looking?
If they didnt think they could get away with this to start with as they had already seen examples of the concequenses, they may have chosen a different target or aproach to you. If all they see is capitulations by you, then they will "smell the fear" and come right at you...animals react in similar fashion.

billybob theorizes,

p.s. the 'illuminati' shadow cabal executed nine one one, not 'fanatic muslims that hate our freedom'.

Umm ok if you say so, but thats another thread.

people who have everything they need, don't rob banks. THAT is the deterent for bank robbery.

In general yeah, but greed knows no bounds. when is enough enough? for some never.

okay.

what makes 'terrorists' different from bank criminals?

terrorists ARE criminals.

you think this 'war on terror' will stop any fanatic who is willing to pay his life for what he sees as 'justice'?

Not in the slightest, yet he will know that if/when he's cought, there will be uncomfortable concequences.

you think indiscriminatley killing a HUNDRED THOUSAND innocents will deter a genius fanatic from carrying out his plans against 'the man'? i would say he is much more likely to be even more fanatically empowered to carry out 'terror' on the 'enemy'.

i take exception with the term "indiscriminatley" as well as the as yet unproven # you cite.
however, the enemy can be as fanatical as he chooses, it makes NO difference as to OUR resolve to defend ourselves and deal with them by using methods of interrogation to determine his plans against us.




[edit on 24-12-2004 by CazMedia]

Originally posted by CazMedia
This is called diplomacy, and its great until the first punchs flies.
Like youve never encountered someone that wasnt taking "no" as an answer, or worse yet sucker punches you when your not looking?

i was brutally stripped naked and assaulted for no reason what so ever, by a group of college lads, while i was in high school. i was one, they were more than at least ten, closer to fifteen. i will not condemn all of humanity, ESPECIALLY NOT OTHER INNOCENTS for the behaviour of a few sick #s.
weak diplomats make weak diplomacy.

Originally posted by CazMediaIf they didnt think they could get away with this to start with as they had already seen examples of the concequenses, they may have chosen a different target or aproach to you. If all they see is capitulations by you, then they will "smell the fear" and come right at you...animals react in similar fashion.

agreed. the key point to observe is the behaviour of predators. save the labels as to who's who.

Originally posted by CazMediabillybob theorizes,

p.s. the 'illuminati' shadow cabal executed nine one one, not 'fanatic muslims that hate our freedom'.

Umm ok if you say so, but thats another thread.

i only brought it up because you were using the extreme nature of nine one one to call for extreme retalitorial measures, i.e. torture, which I, the less than mighty billybob, DON'T CONDONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. i am not a big fan of capital punishment, either, but it is HIGHLY preferable to torture. tell the 'bad guys', "we'll kill you if you don't tell us", and then, kill them if they don't tell you. it's still WRONG in my 'liberal' eyes, but it is the lesser of two evils: murder(very, VERY bad) vs. torture(pure evil).

Originally posted by CazMediaIn general yeah, but greed knows no bounds. when is enough enough? for some never.

indeed. one MUST look at haliburton and enron/kennyboylay/bush to see just how far this kind of evil can spread.

Originally posted by CazMedia
terrorists ARE criminals.

yes. they are. let's find the real ones, instead of shooting everyone with a towel on their head, and then sticking one of those "HELLO, i'm A TERRORIST" stickers on them.
let's look at apparent cover-ups, whacky-stupid 911 physics, insider trading and the agendas of powerful secret societies, instead.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Not in the slightest, yet he will know that if/when he's cought, there will be uncomfortable concequences.

right. so we make big punishment(fear of torture, [AKA TERRORISM]) a 'deterent' KNOWING that it won't deter anything, but it might make mister/missus strap-on-bomb lose a little sleep, OR make him/her more determined. good. makes sense. what else can you use besides terrorism in a war for, ..uh, ...AGAINST terrorism?

Originally posted by CazMedia
i take exception with the term "indiscriminatley" as well as the as yet unproven # you cite.
however, the enemy can be as fanatical as he chooses, it makes NO difference as to OUR resolve to defend ourselves and deal with them by using methods of interrogation to determine his plans against us.

well, i for one, am not going to the middle east to count bodies, and re-assemble body parts guesstimatively. however, i'm sure there are WAY more than enough dead innocents to make my argument stand.
there is NO difference between the kind of 'resolve' you are expounding, and how 'fanatical' the enemy is. you don't get rid of a pimple by rubbing dirt into it.

Wow
i thought your post was going to shrivel up to oblivion there!

Im sorry for your asssault, it surley was innapropriate, but what does this have to do with interrogation of captured enemy combatants?

The only other thing i have to say is
If you think that taking someones life is LESS than causing physical/emotional discomfort/pain....then i think that explains alot.
This is backwards thinking if you ask me...

a person that has been tortured can go on to recover, even if they have lost limbs or have scars, and can continue in life to perhaps win the nobel peace prize, discover the cure for cancer, or just live out his days

a dead person doenst continue to anything.

How one can get these 2 levels of "harm" mixed up is beyond belief, and says alot about the mentality that thinks interrorgation using the methods the USA has condoned is somehow beyond reproach.

THERE WAS NO ABUSE OR TORTURE. President Bush, Rumsfeld, and the troops know and understand more of whats is happening in the WAR than any of you whiny "don't spank my child" libers speaking out your ARSE here. Your hate for this admistration has corrupted your thinking. FACTS mean nothing to you people. Only the allegation.

Well then I ACCUSE all you anti-bushers of aiding and helping terrorisim. Leave america and find out what real abuse and torture is. I am sick of the baseless BS being vomitted here. As posted earlier in this dribble I admitted being a POW under the Khmer Rouge. THAT WAS TORTURE. When any of you can speak with similar authority then your "opinion" has has value on this subject.

Seekerof you have my respect and admiration for staying to the FACTS.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL.

Originally posted by CazMedia
a huge YES here!!!

First of all, my kid would have been warned there were consequences if he commited these acts, and if he chose to violate them, he deserves the concequences...(id be dissapointed in him/her, but they still must learn and be accountable)

Second, If there were others running loose that were involved and my kid was holding out their wherabouts, id say "youve shown great loyalty, but where are your friends now? there letting you twist in the wind for them while they run free." I would certantly NOT want my kid to be scapegoated by "the man" and would expect that ALL guilty parties be held accountable equally. If my kid was still showing arrogance by claming up...id say he continues to deserve the fate he's making for hjimself...again heart breaking to know your kid is STUPID, but as id think that he could survive the approved techniques and they are not out of line, again..he made his bed.

So you would allow the torture of your child to find out who helped? WTF man! Are you SERIOUS! I have just lost ALL hope in the conservative party. Caz, I have an extra flashlight for you as well. It seems you are keeping someone company while being lost in the woods.

By the way. Classy personal attacks on everyones opinions while quoteing all those quotes

Originally posted by DrHoracid
any of you whiny "don't spank my child" libers speaking out your ARSE here. Your hate for this admistration has corrupted your thinking. FACTS mean nothing to you people. Only the allegation.



MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL.

Actually good doctor, I STRONGLY believe in spanking my daughter when things get out of hand. However, I dont hook electrodes to fingertips and plug the wires into a wall socket. (But thats not torture) I also dont hold her in a headlock and pound away on her.(But thats not abuse is it.)

The allegation is the whole thing Doc. Bush is a man and so deserves the exact same legal provisioning afforded to the general populace. With this being said, any other person would have been convicted on murder with such evidence. With this thought, you can only conclude that he is acting above the law. We seem to forget that he works for us. Not the otherway around. Personally, I want to fire the employee. His moral standards and ethical beliefs are a lie. He claims to be a peace loveing president, yet he condones torture, invades countries illegally, and cant keep his focus where it belongs(Afghanistan and OBL) Wheres Donald Trump when you need him:
" Mr. Bush..........YOURE FIRED!" I could die a happy, fulfilled man

[edit on 12/24/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted

THERE WAS NO ABUSE OR TORTURE. President Bush, Rumsfeld, and the troops know and understand more of whats is happening in the WAR than any of you whiny "don't spank my child" libers speaking out your ARSE here. Your hate for this admistration has corrupted your thinking. FACTS mean nothing to you people. Only the allegation.

Dr.Horacid, been in denial is not good for your health. Bush and Rumsfeld are playing god, and it hurts to know the truth.

Well then I ACCUSE all you anti-bushes of aiding and helping terrorism. Leave america and find out what real abuse and torture is. I am sick of the baseless BS being vomitted here. As posted earlier in this dribble I admitted being a POW under the Khmer Rouge. THAT WAS TORTURE. When any of you can speak with similar authority then your "opinion" has has value on this subject.

Now as for that comment thats an insult against ATS terms and conditions and you are acting now like a child with a temper tantrum for somebody with a tittle like you.

The people in the Abu Ghraib did not warranted any abused what so ever. That was the mistake the administration did, the only power the government has is the one the people gives them, they are not Omnipotent you know.

Seekerof you have my respect and admiration for staying to the FACTS.

I think seekerof has been very firm in his defending of Bush, but a littler bit emotional, and that is fine with me.

[edit on 24-12-2004 by marg6043]