The Absolute TRAP of Belief Versus Disbelief in God

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Belief in any supernatural being is ridiculous.
....
To me, atheism is the only choice. Firstly, because we now know these stories to be untrue. Therefor, the concepts of deities in these stories are also untrue. Period.

For those who claim agnosticism, i ask are you also agnostic about unicorns, fairies, and flying men? Or do you flat out deny their existance? There is the same amount of evidence for these as there are for "gods"

LOL! Spoken like a true fundamentalist!

I wonder if he/she sees the irony. "My way is right & everyone else is wrong. Fact." That motto has been preached for countless millennia by well known & now forgotten zealots alike. Same motto, different mask.

originally posted by: Lightworth
Most people are programmed to assume there is no other choice but to either believe or disbelieve in God or "God" - whichever truly exists if either - but in reality there IS a third way, and it's the only rational-meaningful one: Make it an issue of DESIRE to learn about and experience as much of the unexplained-undisclosed as possible instead of making unproved assertions based on mere puny BELIEFS on BOTH sides of the same old prescribed, eternally going NOWHERE crapola! Then, if it could ever be proved that any TYPE of Supreme Being exists, those who have refused to be enslaved-constrained within the existing narrow, hollow, completely impotent paradigm will not have been wrong, just intelligent and skeptical in the real and entirely normal and sane (what a concept) way. Any REAL God, if applicable, would not have a problem with that, or so I would gladly wager in the biggest way.

I'm convinced said Supreme Being (if existing) would ALSO not have a problem with outright DISBELIEVERS in Him/Her/It, at least within the issue of just belief itself. That is how any truly evolved-advanced and intelligent enough -- not egomaniacal -- being would look at it.

Quit worshiping or at least enabling rule by secrecy! Refuse to be confined to the "choices" that are and always will be NON-CHOICES in objective reality. Same goes for the always futile liberal-versus-conservative BS. Think in terms of LIBERATION rather than the prescribed-allowed liberalism.

True, I admit this is my belief, technically, but really more like convictions and core values.

I fail to see a third option between belief and the lack of belief.....

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Without firsthand personal experience (which is a valid reason to have one's opinion swayed either way), Agnosticism is the most rational position on the issue, bar none.

When you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, the obvious conclusion is to leave the subject open to exploration.

So you're going to wait around for that first-hand experience before concluding? It's like waiting for a bus that will never come. Sooner or later you'll have to decide whether to stay or leave.

Agnosticism is fence-sitting at best.

a reply to: Lightworth
The problem is, some religions forbid their adherents to question or seek answers about "god" outside of their sacred books, or clergy. It's actually a "sin" for them to do so. Come to think of it...
Deuteronomy 12

29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.

Note this is the old testament, but the Jewish god was quite clear they were not to go inquiring about other beliefs and gods, or take on any of their rituals.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that

Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

No offence to you, but maybe your eyes are wide shut and your only looking at people from the surface!

Are you seriously so blindly ignorant as to believe anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person? You have no idea what these people do behind closed doors, or how they treat people when there little christian friends aren't watching. Or if they'd even be prepared to give charity or help people in need if there was no one around to praise them for it.

Do you seriously believe all those pedophile priests weren't acting the part on the surface? How people project themselves in public and who they really are, is often 2 different things.

But..... don't believe me, who am I to destroy a persons incredibly naive perception of humanity.

I don't know what you've been through so I can't judge you on that.

Well........ I wasn't sexually abused as a kid, just to get that out of the way. If it was what you were implying.

I don't know you so I can only judge you by what you typed to me. But it seems like you're becoming obsessed or corrupted by the negativity you've suffered. You should be careful with that because it can make you unnecessarily burn bridges or push people away who might've been able to have a good impact in your life. And I'm saying that from experience.

Maybe I am pushing people away and burning bridges because I have no faith in the sincerity of humanity. Maybe I do have a perception that I've been burnt and left in the cold, for simply refusing to follow the status quo. But so what?

Don't see how that's relevant to my argument.

I also feel that your using trickery to justify your stance. Pretending to be sympathetic, yet in reality just attacking my character to defend your biased perception of organized religion.

Shouldn't be surprised though, its how Christians do, ime.

Perhaps you should look back at the post you made about me. You were the one attacking my character, not the other way around. You even called me blindly ignorant & naive. Don't hide from your own words & actions.

2nd, I wasn't implying anything about you being sexually abused. You're the one who used pedophile preachers as an example. So I responded to that.

3rd, don't misunderstand something. It's fine with me if you push people away because of your own perceptions of humanity. I just gave you some advice because I lost some things that were dear to me because I let my previous rage at humanity get the better of me. And my religious beliefs say I should speak up when I see someone doing something I know is wrong. But my beliefs also say we're only accountable for our own actions. So I can't make you change your mind on that & I won't try. And it was relevant because my first post to you was offering you advice on hanging around positive people instead of negative ones. But you buried that by attacking me in your reply to it.

And 4th, you said "Shouldn't be surprised though, its how Christians do, ime." Wow LOL What's that have do with me? I respect many things about Christianity especially the Prophets Jesus & John the Baptist, but I'm not a Christian. Perhaps you're the one who's "blindly ignorant" & not me? You make so many assumptions that I'm not even sure what else to say to you.

originally posted by: Lightworth
Most people are programmed to assume there is no other choice but to either believe or disbelieve in God or "God" - whichever truly exists if either - but in reality there IS a third way, and it's the only rational-meaningful one: Make it an issue of DESIRE to learn about and experience as much of the unexplained-undisclosed as possible instead of making unproved assertions based on mere puny BELIEFS on BOTH sides of the same old prescribed, eternally going NOWHERE crapola!

I'm a good example of someone who went from being programmed into the Christian Faith in childhood who has had a lifetime goal to discover the truth. I went through Wiccan and New Age beliefs for a time followed by an agnostic period and then through the combination of a great deal of reading, complete lack of evidence and self examination, I was brought be to be the atheist I am today. I am so relieved that it has.

originally posted by: LightworthI'm convinced said Supreme Being (if existing) would ALSO not have a problem with outright DISBELIEVERS in Him/Her/It, at least within the issue of just belief itself. That is how any truly evolved-advanced and intelligent enough -- not egomaniacal -- being would look at it.

If I were a supreme being, disbelief wouldn't bother me in the least and while the underlings would be free to follow whatever paths they chose, I think I would be a little more pro-active in proving my existence than the gods of this Earth.

So questioning here is equated to agnosticism?

so in this thread, questioning equates to agnosticism?
Sounds like a closed door for smart people only discussion eh? Ironic.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that

Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

No offence to you, but maybe your eyes are wide shut and your only looking at people from the surface!

Are you seriously so blindly ignorant as to believe anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person? You have no idea what these people do behind closed doors, or how they treat people when there little christian friends aren't watching. Or if they'd even be prepared to give charity or help people in need if there was no one around to praise them for it.

Do you seriously believe all those pedophile priests weren't acting the part on the surface? How people project themselves in public and who they really are, is often 2 different things.

But..... don't believe me, who am I to destroy a persons incredibly naive perception of humanity.

I don't know what you've been through so I can't judge you on that.

Well........ I wasn't sexually abused as a kid, just to get that out of the way. If it was what you were implying.

I don't know you so I can only judge you by what you typed to me. But it seems like you're becoming obsessed or corrupted by the negativity you've suffered. You should be careful with that because it can make you unnecessarily burn bridges or push people away who might've been able to have a good impact in your life. And I'm saying that from experience.

Maybe I am pushing people away and burning bridges because I have no faith in the sincerity of humanity. Maybe I do have a perception that I've been burnt and left in the cold, for simply refusing to follow the status quo. But so what?

Don't see how that's relevant to my argument.

I also feel that your using trickery to justify your stance. Pretending to be sympathetic, yet in reality just attacking my character to defend your biased perception of organized religion.

Shouldn't be surprised though, its how Christians do, ime.

Perhaps you should look back at the post you made about me. You were the one attacking my character, not the other way around. You even called me blindly ignorant & naive. Don't hide from your own words & actions.

I can see how it came across that way. Was kinda hoping you lacked the intelligence to point it out, lol.

To be fair though, I was attacking organized religion as a whole and simply used you as a premise to base my argument on.

2nd, I wasn't implying anything about you being sexually abused. You're the one who used pedophile preachers as an example. So I responded to that.

So you admit then, because I used that example to make a point, you automatically jumped to the conclusion that it was where my resentment towards organized religion originated from?

3rd, don't misunderstand something. It's fine with me if you push people away because of your own perceptions of humanity. I just gave you some advice because I lost some things that were dear to me because I let my previous rage at humanity get the better of me. And my religious beliefs say I should speak up when I see someone doing something I know is wrong. But my beliefs also say we're only accountable for our own actions. So I can't make you change your mind on that & I won't try. And it was relevant because my first post to you was offering you advice on hanging around positive people instead of negative ones. But you buried that by attacking me in your reply to it.

How good for you that your "religious beliefs" gives you the confidants to think you have this whole existence of ours all worked out, then demands you to preach to others about where they went wrong in life.

btw, I don't hang around with negative people. Nor do I hang around with negative religious people that disguise themselves as positive, I have known a fair few of them in my short time on this rock of ours though.

And 4th, you said "Shouldn't be surprised though, its how Christians do, ime." Wow LOL What's that have do with me? I respect many things about Christianity especially the Prophets Jesus & John the Baptist, but I'm not a Christian. Perhaps you're the one who's "blindly ignorant" & not me? You make so many assumptions that I'm not even sure what else to say to you.

Fair enough, it was a bit of a stab in the dark. But you do strike me as a person who gives credibility to organized religion? If so, its all the same to me. I don't discriminate against the bible, torah or koran, different books same nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. So my original point holds true.

Anyway................. In response to the OP, I do play up the whole atheist Darwin angle, simply because I believe the best way to advance mankind is by using the scientific method. But I don't actually consider myself atheist or agnostic, for that matter. I personally think its stupid to box myself into some group of what the meaning or higher truth to this life is.

Maybe we are living some simulation (a video game of sorts by some higher entity), maybe we are just some science experiment of higher form of life (the Ancient astronaut theory), maybe there is a god and this is all some test, or maybe we are in fact just a chance occurrence of physics & chemistry.

Only thing I'm really confident of is that organized religion is just nonsense, created by the elite as a way to control the masses. No higher entity would be that feeble minded, imo.

To paraphrase my signature, I don't feel obligated to take organized religion seriously, because its stupid and to simple.

And by the way, good to know fact:

Belief (n) - a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.

On my opinion, based on the definition, belief does"nt need proof at all. If so, that wont be belief that would be a FACT already.

#UnprovenBelief #SayWhat

originally posted by: Lightworth
Most people are programmed to assume there is no other choice but to either believe or disbelieve in God or "God" - whichever truly exists if either - but in reality there IS a third way, and it's the only rational-meaningful one: Make it an issue of DESIRE to learn about and experience as much of the unexplained-undisclosed as possible instead of making unproved assertions based on mere puny BELIEFS on BOTH sides of the same old prescribed, eternally going NOWHERE crapola! Then, if it could ever be proved that any TYPE of Supreme Being exists, those who have refused to be enslaved-constrained within the existing narrow, hollow, completely impotent paradigm will not have been wrong, just intelligent and skeptical in the real and entirely normal and sane (what a concept) way. Any REAL God, if applicable, would not have a problem with that, or so I would gladly wager in the biggest way.

I'm convinced said Supreme Being (if existing) would ALSO not have a problem with outright DISBELIEVERS in Him/Her/It, at least within the issue of just belief itself. That is how any truly evolved-advanced and intelligent enough -- not egomaniacal -- being would look at it.

Quit worshiping or at least enabling rule by secrecy! Refuse to be confined to the "choices" that are and always will be NON-CHOICES in objective reality. Same goes for the always futile liberal-versus-conservative BS. Think in terms of LIBERATION rather than the prescribed-allowed liberalism.

True, I admit this is my belief, technically, but really more like convictions and core values.

So let me ask you a question - No alcohol, drugs, medication, mental health required....... What if God walked through the walls with a couple of angels behind him and he spoke to you, would you then believe God is alive and VERY real?

a reply to: gottaknow

I'm a good example of someone who went from being programmed into the Christian Faith in childhood who has had a lifetime goal to discover the truth. I went through Wiccan and New Age beliefs for a time followed by an agnostic period and then through the combination of a great deal of reading, complete lack of evidence and self examination, I was brought be to be the atheist I am today. I am so relieved that it has.

I'm glad that has worked for someone at least. I have only been able to reach the point of "God hater", as bad as that label is regarded by respectable folk. (no one is required to inform me of that fact).

The very same sorts of experiences "of the divine" that people mention as "turning them to God" are the same that prevent me from being atheist. I can't simply erase them from my memory.

As far as I can conclude is that there are gods or forces generally not seen or perceived that are influenced by and influence the seen world.

It is my honest opinion that the tyrannical, malevolent, character described in the Old Testament as YHWH, and considered to be the "one and only God" would not exist today except for the gross blunder perpetrated by organized Christian institution of the third to 6th centuries when it was decided that that particular heinous character should be considered as the first person of some holy trinity. Thousands died in order for this to happen. Many books and writers were erased from history, never to be heard of again. This is the recorded MO of the "god of holocaust".

For centuries people have been coerced into reading the stories of this blood thirsty annihilator and then pronounce him just, and good, and the "only wise God". Isn't that a forced cognitive dissonance? Isn't cognitive dissonance a horribly malign influence upon the human mind and spirit? Absolutely! That is the source of this malign character's power to influence events in this world of ours. He would not exist apart from this power.

It has been heartening to me to see that many people on ATS have embraced neo-Marcionism, whether they know what the label means or not, whether they use any label or not. It's not something you can openly speak of in an organized church setting and still be considered a member in good standing.

Sorry to inflict this on you, as a response to your post, just a little getting something off my chest.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Ah, thank you. You are maybe the second person I've seen to have reached the same conclusion I've had for a long time now who has articulated it (I'm sure others have gotten there too). The problem is simply human nature. No matter who we say we are or what we say we follow, each of us has the same flawed nature, and each of us is susceptible to the same range of temptations.

What makes the measure of a person is how we rise to that challenge. Do we master ourselves or are we mastered?

I suspect that you think that same as I on what happens when you let yourself be mastered by your nature.

God gives us the strength to see our way through and master ourselves. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with this. Maybe not.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

If I were to experience what you suggest (or something similar enough), I would want to know something convincing enough that would make any TYPE of Supreme Being, if applicable, different from other ETs, nonhumans, interdimensionals etc. What would set Him/Her/It apart from the others? How could it be proved? I'm not convinced a Supreme Being (if existing) would NECESSARILY have to be the one and only Creator of the entire infinite, incomprehensible universe as required in the Abrahamic-monotheistic tradition.

(I have to leave for several hours, but will check back later).

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Belief in any supernatural being is ridiculous.
....
To me, atheism is the only choice. Firstly, because we now know these stories to be untrue. Therefor, the concepts of deities in these stories are also untrue. Period.

For those who claim agnosticism, i ask are you also agnostic about unicorns, fairies, and flying men? Or do you flat out deny their existance? There is the same amount of evidence for these as there are for "gods"

LOL! Spoken like a true fundamentalist!

I'm a fundamentalist because there is no evidence for gods? Do you just throw this word at me because you think it will hurt me? How silly.

It doesn't do anything to help your cause. It's just name calling. But since you have no proof for what you believe, your best option is name calling. Fundamentalist? That is great.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Lightworth
Most people are programmed to assume there is no other choice but to either believe or disbelieve in God or "God" - whichever truly exists if either - but in reality there IS a third way, and it's the only rational-meaningful one: Make it an issue of DESIRE to learn about and experience as much of the unexplained-undisclosed as possible instead of making unproved assertions based on mere puny BELIEFS on BOTH sides of the same old prescribed, eternally going NOWHERE crapola! Then, if it could ever be proved that any TYPE of Supreme Being exists, those who have refused to be enslaved-constrained within the existing narrow, hollow, completely impotent paradigm will not have been wrong, just intelligent and skeptical in the real and entirely normal and sane (what a concept) way. Any REAL God, if applicable, would not have a problem with that, or so I would gladly wager in the biggest way.

I'm convinced said Supreme Being (if existing) would ALSO not have a problem with outright DISBELIEVERS in Him/Her/It, at least within the issue of just belief itself. That is how any truly evolved-advanced and intelligent enough -- not egomaniacal -- being would look at it.

Quit worshiping or at least enabling rule by secrecy! Refuse to be confined to the "choices" that are and always will be NON-CHOICES in objective reality. Same goes for the always futile liberal-versus-conservative BS. Think in terms of LIBERATION rather than the prescribed-allowed liberalism.

True, I admit this is my belief, technically, but really more like convictions and core values.

So let me ask you a question - No alcohol, drugs, medication, mental health required....... What if God walked through the walls with a couple of angels behind him and he spoke to you, would you then believe God is alive and VERY real?

I would also believe in unicorns and fairies if i found one in my yard. When god comes walking through your walls, let me know.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

Hmm, I don't know about that. I am pretty religious but far from hard hearted. My religion never taught me that it was acceptable to be cruel and mean.

Stalin wasn't exactly a nice guy. Maybe Stalin could pray at the end, perhaps he could have apologized for being cruel while he was an atheist.

Do you think that is possible? On another thread they were remembering the fall of Pnom Phen, I seem to recall Pol Phot was exactly nice either. So maybe both of those men could find grace within atheism to forgive their trespasses against humanity?

a reply to: Woodcarver
Lol. Nice one Woodcarver.

Religion is made no sense if you dont value and respect humanity. Religion is not just of your belief but of your purpose as well as you live.

The irony you see amongst church goers, as much as 3x a day they kneel,pray and receive the gospel and homily. But do they apply it towards their day to day life? Towards their neighbors and friends and even strangers? At worst they're the ones who does the exact opposite.

And what is sad, we try to fight for proof and questioning each other's belief but have we checked ourselves? are we too engrossed proving instead of living to our beliefs? So lets go back to the title of this thread. What really is the absolute trap of belief vs disbelief in God?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
I'm a fundamentalist because there is no evidence for gods? Do you just throw this word at me because you think it will hurt me? How silly.

It doesn't do anything to help your cause. It's just name calling. But since you have no proof for what you believe, your best option is name calling. Fundamentalist? That is great.

Oh, I meant no harm. I just thought how you worded your post was very "absolute" the way it sounded (like fundamentalists sound in terms of their "absolutes") - and given the opening post was about being open beyond any absolute beliefs, the thought of a fundamentalist-atheist struck me as funny.

Go back and read your post, and you may understand what I am getting at.

Again, I meant no harm. In fact I should have said something more directed toward your post so this misunderstanding might have been avoided.

Not sure how you came to what you said about me and my beliefs and my cause, given my first post on the first page. Did you even read my post, or did you just assume something about me?

Here, I will comment on your post below - especially the "absolute" (fundamentalist-like) sounding parts:

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Belief in any supernatural being is ridiculous. The only reason the concept even comes up is because of the long standing myth of such beings and the constant manipulation and propogation of these stories as fact. Couple that with 7 billion uneducated and easily lead opinions, along with a worldwide campaign to divide and ostricize or kill the "nonbelievers" and you get a large section of people who will believe just about anything they read.

A very general and conclusion-jumping statement to support a claim that billions of peoples' beliefs are ridiculous. Such a strong remark should certainly be supported by something more convincing than what you wrote.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
To me, atheism is the only choice. Firstly, because we now know these stories to be untrue. Therefor, the concepts of deities in these stories are also untrue. Period.

So if some myths are found untrue, all possibility of God is therefore eliminated? "Period"?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Agnosticism is the belief that there is not enough info to make a decision one way or the other. But i say there is plenty of evidence that the stories which we get our concepts for god from, are untrue. That is all the proof i need to not believe in something.

For those who claim agnosticism, i ask are you also agnostic about unicorns, fairies, and flying men? Or do you flat out deny their existance? There is the same amount of evidence for these as there are for "gods"

Yes, believe what you want, but if you are going to criticize all other positions as ridiculous, please bring really strong support for your claims.

For the record, I did not actually call you a fundamentalist. I said "Spoken like a true fundamentalist." Obviously, I know you are not a fundamentalist.

However, I do sincerely apologize for not giving you this feedback in the first place - I should have. Thank you.

a reply to: pthena

No problem at all. I consider myself an anti-theist as well and appreciate the sentiments.
I understand how as atheists, we've only recently had a voice whatsoever in human history whereas even a hundred years ago(or less) we'd be considered heathenistic and all sorts of shaming/worse that goes along with that.

Even now, our voice is small, but because we now have one, we're shamed into being some sort of bully for speaking up or considered a "religion" of our own, which is preposterous in many ways. It's pretty awful, really.

At least it appears the tide is finally turning and people are starting to think for themselves. It's very refreshing.


Also, I realize you do not consider yourself an atheist at this time. My post didn't come off as showing that.