Alcoholism treatment revolutionized by ...insurance?

At least AA acknowledges that addiction can not be cured, unlike some other treatment centres.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I've been to plenty of AA meetings.

To Dr Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, vigorous, outspoken, 58-year-old leader of the revivalist Oxford Group, the Fascist dictatorships of Europe suggest infinite possibilities for remaking the world and putting it under "God Control".
"I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism, " he said today in his book-lined office in the annexe of Calvary Church, Fourth Ave and 21st St.

Link

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Itisnowagain



SMART Recovery is an option for people seeking non-religious/spiritual based recovery. SMART uses REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy). Some people really like it. It's also free to attend, and there are no spiritual or religious elements to it.

Smart Recovery and other methods 16 step recovery, rational recovery, synanon, and others work for some people and do great good, however, most alcoholic need more regular support from there fellows and examples of positive (or negative) recovery.

AA can also be dangerous. Many courts now mandate that people attend AA. Due to the nature of AA, you may very well be sitting next to a sex offender and not realize it. Bill W, the founder of AA was also AA's first "13th Stepper".

Thirteenth Stepping is when a more experienced AA member takes advantage of a younger, newer member -- usually female. There have been cases where women have been raped and murdered by people they've met and trusted in AA. AA has no accountability due to it's "anonymous" nature. There's a movie called The 13th Step that deals with the dangers posed by AA.

This behavoir does happen in the room. Most members are on the watchout for predators and 13th stepping happens in all - I repeat all - social groups.

You can have spirituality without "religion" but you can't have religion without spirituality. There is a reason that in several court cases, the courts have upheld that AA is indeed religious. Here's one Federal case from 2007:

Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705 (9th Cir. 2007)
Federal Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit

The 9th Circuit reversed and remanded, holding that it is established law that A.A. is religious in nature and that participation in the program cannot be coerced where a parolee objects to its religious content.

This is something that is overblown. In fact, it's quite controversial in AA to be 'supporting' the court system in this manner - AA has no say in the matter - each group decides whether or not they will sign 'court cards'. The courts send everyone our way whether or not we can help them.

It's funny, you never see anyone closing an AA meeting with a Muslim prayer in Arabic -- usually it's the Lord's Prayer or the Serenity Prayer. I wonder if an AA group would have a problem with closing a meeting with a Hindu prayer?

Not at all - in other countries other prayers or verses are used. Some meetings use no invocations whatsoever. Every AA group is different and I'm sorry you haven't seen that.

The thing is, the entire organization's tenets and beliefs were taken from the Oxford Group, who were a bunch of fundie Christians in the 1930's. Addiction to them was a moral defect. Wait...a moral defect of character? I thought alcoholism was a disease?

The Oxford Group again - lol. Emmett Fox was also instrumental - the turn of the 20th century christian writter - in the early formation of the work. As an atheist, I find Dr. Fox's work very helpful - he has a very esoteric view of religion.

If alcoholism is a disease, then it's not a character defect. AA tries to have it all claiming that alcoholism is a failure of moral character and a disease at the same time. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

Alocoholism (addiction) is a disease. Acts committed by addicts can be moral (ethical) or not - just like anybody else.

AA has all the hallmark qualities of a cult. Having said that, for some people it's better to be sober in a cult than destroying their lives or the lives of others. AA has indeed helped many people, but I think people need to be shown that there are a myriad of other more modern approaches to dealing with alcoholism and addiction.

This is truly funny. Do you know the 'hallmarks' of a cult:

Here's a list:

he group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

www.csj.org...

The only one that 'might' apply are:

The group is elitist....

AA is not for everyone, and it shouldn't be touted as the only way for everyone.

NOWHERE has anyone said AA is the only way.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've been to plenty of AA meetings.

To Dr Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, vigorous, outspoken, 58-year-old leader of the revivalist Oxford Group, the Fascist dictatorships of Europe suggest infinite possibilities for remaking the world and putting it under "God Control".
"I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism, " he said today in his book-lined office in the annexe of Calvary Church, Fourth Ave and 21st St.

Link

From your quoted source:

Buchman was staking his life's work and such reputation as he had on an attempt to present Germany with an alternative to Nazism.

Seems to be somewhat contradictory - hmmm.

And AA is not the Oxford Group or one of it's leaders.

One of the precepts of AA path is to "take what you can use and leave the rest".

"These are but suggestions only."

"Keep coming back"

You love it, and are doing what the 12th step says:

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I don't find AA offensive, but I do think that it isn't the only nor even close to the "best" way to treat alcoholism. One woman I know has to call her sponsor every single night after reading a specific passage in the "Big Book" and pray with her over the phone. She asked after about 4 weeks (she told me this), "So when do I get to stop doing this?" Her sponsor simply said, "I'll know when you get the message".

I love how AA is never wrong. If it doesn't work for you, you failed not the program. I can't tell you how many variations on, "The program never fails; people just fail the program" I've heard in meetings.

To me, that's just insane.

And yes, different meetings with different people ... I get it.

And yes, I don't care what anyone tells me (especially someone in AA) -- AA is very cult-like, which is probably OK considering they're sober instead of dead or in jail.

I also love how fast you'll get iced by AA if you talk about things that aren't specifically AA-related that help you. Bringing up AVRT (addictive voice recognition training) will get you iced pretty darn quick. Anything that ISN'T in the Big Book or the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions isn't allowed. Free thought is discouraged.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've been to plenty of AA meetings.

To Dr Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, vigorous, outspoken, 58-year-old leader of the revivalist Oxford Group, the Fascist dictatorships of Europe suggest infinite possibilities for remaking the world and putting it under "God Control".
"I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism, " he said today in his book-lined office in the annexe of Calvary Church, Fourth Ave and 21st St.

Link

I've not found your quote yet - but upon further reading it is clearly taken out of context - if it is there at all. Ah here it is:

And with it this:

The legend of this interview which survives - and has been quoted again and again - is that Buchman said, 'Thank God for Hitler.' This phrase was not Buchman's nor printed in the article, nor, according to those present, did it represent the tenor of the interview. For example, Garrett Stearly states, 'I was present at the interview. I was amazed when the story came out. It was so out of key with the interview. This had started with an account of the Oxford Group's work in Europe. Buchman was asked what about Germany. He said that Germany needed a new Christian spirit, yet one had to face the fact that Hitler had been a bulwark against Communism there - and you could at least thank heaven for that. It was a throw-away line. No eulogy of Hitler at all.'

Come on dude - this is pathetic.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
You love it, and are doing what the 12th step says:

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I don't find AA offensive, but I do think that it isn't the only nor even close to the "best" way to treat alcoholism. One woman I know has to call her sponsor every single night after reading a specific passage in the "Big Book" and pray with her over the phone. She asked after about 4 weeks (she told me this), "So when do I get to stop doing this?" Her sponsor simply said, "I'll know when you get the message".

No I don't love AA - the idea is funny to me and to all who know me. Am I grateful that it's always been there for me yes - do I put time and effort into seeing that the doors remain open for future alcoholics - yeppers - giving back.

Do I preach it - rarely. I've had to use a lot of other things in my life - but I do enjoy the fellowship and people that I've met through the program.

My sponsor doesn't have me do anything like that. Everybody is different. In fact, what's so wrong about calling someone everyday to check in? Or praying with someone everyday? Is it wrong - for you maybe - but it helps a lot of people. I spend quite a while each day in prayer and meditation - and I reiterate I'm an atheist. I had to get past the god stuff and AA acually healed me from feeling broken because I couldn't believe in a creator god once I openned my mind and just listened (rather then argue about how wrong everyone was or how it would never work for me)

I love how AA is never wrong. If it doesn't work for you, you failed not the program. I can't tell you how many variations on, "The program never fails; people just fail the program" I've heard in meetings.

Never heard such a thing in the 35 years I've been around AA groups or meetings. Perhaps you misinterupted "maybe you're not ready" - that I have heard.

To me, that's just insane.

And yes, different meetings with different people ... I get it.

And yes, I don't care what anyone tells me (especially someone in AA) -- AA is very cult-like, which is probably OK considering they're sober instead of dead or in jail.

I also love how fast you'll get iced by AA if you talk about things that aren't specifically AA-related that help you. Bringing up AVRT (addictive voice recognition training) will get you iced pretty darn quick. Anything that ISN'T in the Big Book or the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions isn't allowed. Free thought is discouraged.

Don't know where you are going to meetings - and true some people (people not AA - get the distinction) can be hidebound - but where I go we talk about anything and everything that helps us. That's where making friends comes in - you get to know who is open-minded and who is not and YOU get to decide who you want to emulate.

Listen to Gabor mate - you might like his take... discovered him in the rooms.

Or you may like from an AA group - the first couple of minutes may turn you off, for some strange reason she starts with the Serenity Prayer - but keep listening, she has a great take (a very multi-faced take) on the 12 steps (and LISTEN not judge):

20 years ago I got a DUI and had to go to AA . What a joke I guess I never understood that you cannot recover?? When I would introduce my self I would say I'm a RECOVERED ALCHOLIC just to stir them up they would be all over me. I had a job family and everything the non recovers didn't but they could blame their weakness for their lack of. The best thing was we were in Michigan's UP out in the middle of nowhere and lo and behold there was the AA ringleader sitting at a bar getting drunk. I kept quiet and on the way out I picked up their tab and never attended again.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm pretty open-minded, so I'll check out the stuff you've posted when I get some time. I try to give everything a shot.

The problem I see with people in AA is that they never really address the underlying issues. They simply put a band-aid on their problem by going to endless meetings and having people to call on 24/7.

If you understand yourself and your addiction, you are in a much better place and actually have grown as a human being. Until you break down the myths of alcohol and why it was appealing, you're always going to have it lurking in the back of your mind as something to miss.

Alan Carr's book does a pretty good job on getting that process going.

a reply to: mikell

Something similar happened after my first AA meeting. The next day I saw one of the more outspoken people from the meeting walking out of the liquor store next to the grocery store. They didn't appear to recognize me since I was a newbie.

One thought for everyone:

I just cracked a smile and started to laugh. I mean, when it comes down to it at the end of the day, who really cares how someone got sober? Isn't the most important thing that they quit drinking and moved on to build a healthier life?

I suppose there could be endless debates back and forth on what "works" and what "doesn't" -- but I've found that it's up to the individual. The person trying to quit has to want it and be committed to doing whatever works.

I mean, we an all agree that everyone is different (it would be a dreadfully boring world if we weren't)? I don't think there's a one size fit all approach to any kind of substance abuse.

As long as you're not being hurt or hurting someone else and you are keeping your goal of sobriety, then that's a win in my book. If coloring with crayons keeps you sober, then color away!

To me, AA doesn't hold the answers, but that's OK with me. The unfortunate thing is that many of the other avenues available to people aren't widely known. One would think with the power of the internet, more people would be aware of other programs and methods of addiction treatment -- sadly they're not.

I think I said it very early on in here that I'd encourage someone new to sobriety to give AA a try. I'd hope they wouldn't feel bad if they didn't like it. I mean, it's FREE after all. If there's anything to AA it's the socialization. Many people feel very isolated and like they don't fit into society when they're sober. AA can introduce these people to other people like them. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if all AA was were sober people knitting, it'd be just as successful.

SMART and other groups can give people socialization, and phone numbers can be shared. At the end of the day it really shouldn't be about HOW someone got sober, but rather that they DID.

Most alcoholics don't even need AA or help, they consume as much as they need to feel good or function. I work with a guy who always has a small flask of watered down gin, he never takes a swig or is drunk on the job but he says just knowing it's there and in case of complications it's there gives him peace of mind.

The typical bum on the streets or the guy who can barely function like you see on tv is rare, and usually they are addicted to something else.

originally posted by: Uphill
In the April 2015 issue of The Atlantic magazine, a lengthy article on alcoholism treatment successes and failures explores an array of treatment protocols with astounding findings: The truth about AA is well hidden in a Tower of Babel, surprisingly effective alcoholism treatments exist outside the USA, especially in Finland, and the US medical treatment of alcoholism is about to be revolutionized by the Affordable Care Act, which has already provided access to US medical care for many people for the first time.

Here is a link to the complete text of that article. I will also look for the print edition, which probably has added helpful graphics and sidebars:

www.theatlantic.com...

Nothing wrong with AA though. It's helped millions recover and lead productive meaningful happy lives. If AA doesn't work for you then there are, of course, all of these other options and treatment. Keeping in mind that AA is free forever with support groups the world over.

a reply to: amazing

Also a good social outlet without the temptation of alcohol. A lot of the time, people go out for coffee afterwards.

originally posted by: Autorico
a reply to: amazing

Also a good social outlet without the temptation of alcohol. A lot of the time, people go out for coffee afterwards.

Agreed. I have yet to see a downside to it.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've been to plenty of AA meetings.

Are you still trying to get sober?
Maybe watching Paul Hedderman might help you see AAs approach differently?

You know, it's actually really easy for me to see the "cult" side of AA even though I currently attend and have been for just about 4 years now. I have worked through the steps with sponsors multiple times, I take my spirituality as a metaphysical, minds-eye type of view of things, while believing we are all connected in some way or another. I hate the religious aspects of it. And I have to agree with Fyrebyrd that it seems like you either A.) gone to some pretty crap meetings, and/or B.) you have attended AA in a completely different region of the world outside of the US.

You both have a point, and the hardest part for me that I still struggle with today is if still going to meetings is really worth it. I have done the work, I have done some very thorough 4th steps, and am a lot healthier than when I started. It seems like the time I put into AA isn't necessarily wasted, but could definitely be better spent elsewhere. It feels like a pyramid scheme to me after all this time.

I can't say how grateful I am for the people that have helped me and the program that helped me sort things out in my own head, while giving me much better inter-personal skills by being around other people. But at the same time I absolutely hate and despise it because I feel obligated.

I guess I just need to stop caring so much about what others think of me. Which, ironically, is something a lot of AA'ers say, but not when it comes to the other people in AA. Oh no. Better put on that golden smile and sound good for the group, thats A-Ok, even if you were to be miserable with the world outside of AA and cynical and nihilistic. That's also fine. But god forbid if you bring that into a meeting.

originally posted by: scghst1
You know, it's actually really easy for me to see the "cult" side of AA even though I currently attend and have been for just about 4 years now.

....

I guess I just need to stop caring so much about what others think of me. Which, ironically, is something a lot of AA'ers say, but not when it comes to the other people in AA. Oh no. Better put on that golden smile and sound good for the group, thats A-Ok, even if you were to be miserable with the world outside of AA and cynical and nihilistic. That's also fine. But god forbid if you bring that into a meeting.

Why censor what you say in a meeting. I know the 'desire' to sound hip, slick and cool, but people get a lot out of hearing others struggles, the things they've done that don't work, the things that do. I very much share about what isn't working with me and yes some people don't like it but hey, I'm there for me. And frankly, getting beyond the façade (the pink cloud) and into real life is the whole point.

Hang in there. At five years things seem to shift for a lot of people. Maybe it's finally accepting that you aren't perfect and never will be. Maybe it's just knowing yourself better. Not sure. For me, I just stopped trying to fight everything - especially the things I considered 'bad'. Something changed too, when I stopped trying to believe in a creator god and just accepted my atheism. Funny how that brought about an Faith that I could work with. The shifts were all in me and over time but the change of attitude is astounding.

I'd highly recommend viewing the video's I've posted.

AA might work for some people, though for others, it is completely worthless. Just as rehab works for some, fails for others. When it comes to addiction, different methods should be presented and tried, and whatever works best for the individual should be the plan used, regardless. Life long, successful long term addiction treatment only works if the person receiving treatment can stick with it or work with it, and one size does not fit all.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I really think you're misunderstanding me a little bit. I was not meaning at all that I am a newcomer. What I said is based on what I have seen in meetings around this area. I do what I want, but a lot of other people put on that facade, and that's what I meant. I wasn't talking personally for me. I should have clarified that better, and for that I apologize.

Regardless, you are correct though, things do tend to change from the 3 year to 5 year mark and I just celebrated 3.5 years on 4-1-15. The spiritual awakening and that profound change of character and personality has really been a huge step for me. I absolutely love it. Some very good things are starting to happen in my life thanks to doing all of the work.

At the same time though, I still stand my ground about some of the negative sides about AA like I said in my previous post, but that does not mean that I can't "take what I need and leave the rest". Which is exactly what I do. Everything And Everyone is either a Lesson or a Blessin'. Good things are the blessings, and the not so good things are the lessons. They are put into your life as a test to learn something and gain experience of what NOT to do.

Either way, I am glad that we can both speak in AA terms. I haven't met anyone else online who knew anything about it. So thank you