Putin confirms anti-ship missile deployment to Crimea

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

It's a super cavitating torpedo. It doesn't use steam, it injects bubbles around it to create a curtain that allows higher speeds, up to about 110 knots. It's currently extremely short ranged though.

That is Squall by name and it was developed in mid 1990s I think. Problem with it is short range and also it is not very maneuverable. It's like a bullet shot in a straight line. Sub has to come real near to get a high probability hit.

Bad news is that Iranians have reverse engineered this technology and can possibly run a riot if not detected early enough by adversary vessels in the Persian Gulf.

a reply to: victor7

You know I didn't even think about cyber warfare.

I did think about the satellites though.

I read once, can't remember where, but it was an article linked to my mil.gov account that we have new satellites ready to be launched within like 48 hours I believe it was if any get killed and we need one.

Haven't read anything about that in the last few years though.

I just have a hard time believing a MALD can honestly fool advanced radars into thinking they are modern fighters coming in.

Surely a military as advanced as Russia's wouldnt see a sitting duck squadron coming in and just open up.

I presume they would at most open up a limited strike to see what happens.

It just seems like it would be an obvious trojan horse play to me, and everyone everywhere knows that trick already.

a reply to: johnwick

MALD is only designed for SAM and A2A radars, not for long range early warning radars or even AWACS radars. It'san extremely advanced decoy though.

originally posted by: victor7

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

It's a super cavitating torpedo. It doesn't use steam, it injects bubbles around it to create a curtain that allows higher speeds, up to about 110 knots. It's currently extremely short ranged though.

That is Squall by name and it was developed in mid 1990s I think. Problem with it is short range and also it is not very maneuverable. It's like a bullet shot in a straight line. Sub has to come real near to get a high probability hit.

Bad news is that Iranians have reverse engineered this technology and can possibly run a riot if not detected early enough by adversary vessels in the Persian Gulf.

What is the cost effectiveness of these?

I ask because if they are basically cheap dummy munitions it might be very effective to just shotgun these things from small fast vessels that could be send enmass.

Obviously our surface guns would eat the small fast vessels alive.

But if they are powerful even getting a few hits may well be worth it.

a reply to: johnwick

It's thought that the Kursk was sunk when one of these torpedoes exploded.

It's a 460 lb torpedo. Launch speed is about 50 mph, top speed is 230 mph. There are two versions. The early design has a range of about 4.5 miles, the later design is between 7 and 9 miles.

a reply to: johnwick

en.wikipedia.org...

I think each cost was $250K but not sure. Max speed listed is 200 knots which is a bullet shot in the torpedo league. In mid 1990s it did make some splash in the naval circles but went quiet afterwards. Can it be launched by minno boats? do not know either.

a reply to: victor7

Anything that has a big enough torpedo tube can theoretically launch it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

MALD is only designed for SAM and A2A radars, not for long range early warning radars or even AWACS radars. It'san extremely advanced decoy though.

Would the MALDs have same IRST signature as a legacy fighter? They can fool the radars but will they be able to trick the IRSTs.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

MALD is only designed for SAM and A2A radars, not for long range early warning radars or even AWACS radars. It'san extremely advanced decoy though.

So advanced radars would know the difference but SAM2s might get fooled into getting killed?

Still seems worth it, since they are cheap.

Hell if they even saved a single aircraft we could lose a few and make out like bandits.

Very interesting conversation in this thread. No hating, and I am learning a lot.

Been out since 06.

Was just an artillery man.

FDC

So I know about land based artillery and air defense artillery. But not a lot about the enemies capabilities against our new counter measures.

We still haven't even discussed the use of drones in this scenario.

They are made for the role of going after high profile targets that are too dangerous to risk people on.

Don't we have drones with stealth as good as the F-22 or B-2?

How autonomous are they?

Do they require a pilot? What if the satellite gets hit?

I assume they are preprogrammed to prosecute their mission and return without outside input.

a reply to: victor7

No. MALD flies a programmed path with radar signature boosters that will decoy fighters into the wrong area, trying to identify whether they're real aircraft or decoys.

The MALD-J has an integrated jamming system as well as a datalink back to the launching platform.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

It's thought that the Kursk was sunk when one of these torpedoes exploded.

It's a 460 lb torpedo. Launch speed is about 50 mph, top speed is 230 mph. There are two versions. The early design has a range of about 4.5 miles, the later design is between 7 and 9 miles.

Wow, that is only a few miles over the horizon line.

Say you get a cigar boat with 2, one mounted on each side, and get just 5 miles past the horizon line, you might actually get a shot off and have a chance if hitting something.

Assuming of course you magically got missed by every airplane and helicopter, and all the look outs from elevated positions thus pushing the horizon back by miles, and the radars and sonars.

So in a one in a billion suicide attempt one might get a shot with one from a small fast boat, as long as hell freezes over, pugs grow wings and my dog stops barking.

So there is not much of a chance then.....

Easy to think these things out with very limited info.

Still sounds good on paper though.

250 mph, really?

That is crazy fast.

Damn

a reply to: johnwick

MALD is great for protection. It works against modern integrated systems, as well as legacy systems. It just doesn't work as well against something like the ROTHR system the Navy has.

There are UAVs that have better stealth than the B-2, but they're only ISR systems, not strike. They can be flown either with a pilot in command or semi autonomous.

a reply to: johnwick

Something like the Chinese did to the Kittyhawk is the best bet for a torpedo like this. Lie doggo, and come up as they pass over and try to get a shot off.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: victor7

No. MALD flies a programmed path with radar signature boosters that will decoy fighters into the wrong area, trying to identify whether they're real aircraft or decoys.

The MALD-J has an integrated jamming system as well as a datalink back to the launching platform.

I read about and saw a sales pitch video about them.

Can't link from my phone (pos) but if you type "mald jsow" into YouTube search it will bring up the Raytheon vid. It shows the different variants.

It is more of a sales pitch than a factual based bid it seems to me.

But if even half what they claim is true, it seems very capable.

a reply to: johnwick

It's a lot more capable than any other decoy. It's quite impressive what it can do. The MALD - J is a REALLY nice jamming system.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

Something like the Chinese did to the Kittyhawk is the best bet for a torpedo like this. Lie doggo, and come up as they pass over and try to get a shot off.

Now that crap was just off the hook. We didn't have a clue.

Just popped up...."hey how's it going" right in the middle of our fleet exercises. Right next to one of our carriers.

If that thing had a couple of these..... Couplda been a Shiite storm.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

MALD is great for protection. It works against modern integrated systems, as well as legacy systems. It just doesn't work as well against something like the ROTHR system the Navy has.

There are UAVs that have better stealth than the B-2, but they're only ISR systems, not strike. They can be flown either with a pilot in command or semi autonomous.

That still goes a long way though.

Hell eyes and ears in enemy territory, that is a fleet commanders wet dream.

Only passive systems I assume?

Does it have an audible signature?

Seems like the only way to try and track a hole in the sky.

Seems like our subs during the 80s and 90s, to find them one must search for the hole in the ocean not emitting any heat or sound.

Very interesting stuff here.

It just seems a drone with the B-2 bomb bay would be half the size and just as stealthed, because it doesn't need room or life support for people.

Surprised we don't have a squadron at least of them.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

It's a lot more capable than any other decoy. It's quite impressive what it can do. The MALD - J is a REALLY nice jamming system.

And links with the JSOW and HARM to go in first to disable critical antiair radars and Sam sites, without risking anyone.

Bonus- they are pretty cheap as well.

First cost effective thing they have built in a long time.

My biggest concern is range.

It seems like our birds would have to enter dangerous territory just to properly deploy this system with any real value.

Don't the advanced SAM systems gave greater range than them?

Though if launched from drones I guess it works out just fine.

Just get as close as you can and deploy, let them waste shots on drones and decoys while the stealths do their thing with HARMs and mop up their radars and Sam sites.

Making way for the legacy strike aircraft to come in and wreak serious havoc enmass.

originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

Something like the Chinese did to the Kittyhawk is the best bet for a torpedo like this. Lie doggo, and come up as they pass over and try to get a shot off.

Now that crap was just off the hook. We didn't have a clue.

Just popped up...."hey how's it going" right in the middle of our fleet exercises. Right next to one of our carriers.

I don't understand. I always thought that being forced up is a sub captain's defeat? Subs do NOT want to surface right near the enemy. Doesn't ASW activity try to bring up (diesel) subs when they finally need air?

originally posted by: mbkennel

originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: johnwick

Something like the Chinese did to the Kittyhawk is the best bet for a torpedo like this. Lie doggo, and come up as they pass over and try to get a shot off.

Now that crap was just off the hook. We didn't have a clue.

Just popped up...."hey how's it going" right in the middle of our fleet exercises. Right next to one of our carriers.

I don't understand. I always thought that being forced up is a sub captain's defeat? Subs do NOT want to surface right near the enemy. Doesn't ASW activity try to bring up (diesel) subs when they finally need air?

It was a slap in the face move.

China was mad about these exercises, and in "our own" waters just "magically" surfaced a sub in the midst of our fleet, just a few dozens of yards off our carrier.

Sent serious "whiskey tango foxtrot" throughout our entire navy.

Subnets and sonars were deployed, they got the one in a million and snuck through.

Then surfaced purposely to say "what's really hood mothereffer".

They weren't found or forced up.

They snuck into the kings chamber and held a knife to his throat and dropped it saying "what did we just learn".

It was the single biggest embarrassment in modern US naval history.

Past all our defenses etc to the crown jewel.

Simply bad to the arsed!!!!