Do you submit to authority?

Are the psychological forces that compel people to obey same or different? Is there a conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience?

World War II’s war-criminals claimed they were simply following orders and could not be held responsible for their ghastly acts. Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram conducted a series of social psychology experiments in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to answer an intriguing question: Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?

Milgram found that obedience to authority is ingrained in all of us – people can follow orders from a morally right legitimate authority even to the extent of killing an innocent human being. His experiment demonstrated that most people would give a helpless victim fatal electric shocks when ordered to.

Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article The Perils of Obedience:

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects’ [participants’] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects’ [participants’] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.

“The disappearance of a sense of responsibility is the most far-reaching consequence of submission to authority,” Milgram concluded.

The Perils of obedience

I might pretend I'm subservient to authority if it ensures my continuing to hate it, but I'll constantly be looking for a way to get back at you if you are making my life miserable. That's just how I roll.

An interesting point to ponder, especially when considering such psychological phenomena as Group Think and how this effects our reactions to orders given e.g. Hitler's orders to the rest of Nazi Germany.

It takes a strong character to say no to authority, the beauty of this place is that there are so many brains I imagine lots on here will be confident enough to say no to authority.

I do wonder how many of these same people would say 'no' when a room of 1000 are saying 'yes'.

The Milgram experiments were unique in that they were the last of their kind to allow deception, a shame because they showed a lot about human psyche.

I would suggest they show more about our inner sadism than obedience. On a larger scale it is more about obedience than sadism.

This scenario is happening everywhere. In another thread, a poster stated that they thought people were being dishonest citizens when they opted not to disclose whether they owned a firearm. Like it is an unspoken rule or command. Minds of people are being co opted simply by a "false" authority, and believing false things are "law" or what everyone should be doing based solely on the hive belief system that is put out by mainstream media, without scrutiny or contemplation.

The op takes this much further, but where does it begin?

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

That person was me. If you are asked by a lawful official if you have firearms and you say no, when really you have lots of them secreted around in convenient to reach places, you are being dishonest AND ultra-paranoid.

Analyzing my own behavior, I'd say it this way-

I have typical social animal drives: a sense of necessity for hierarchial organization in group endeavors.
There are certain roles which must be filled, and leadership is one of them.
I will either submit to the authority present, or if I perceive it is not in balanced, or in line with my view of ethics, I will search to take his/her place, or take part in supporting another to do so.

This is why I will be most likely, in cases where voting for a leader is concerned, to study their ethics and morals, their ultimate intents and goals, more than even the details of their plan to get there.

The problem is that once a person has been placed in that position, a certain amount of trust is necessary, as they will have access to a larger perspective than I, and some of their orders may seem contrary to the goal from my limited view and knowledge... so I sometimes have to take some leaps of faith. That could lead to some acts which seem to be "wrong" to me, but that I will actually ignore that evidence, hoping that it will become clear, afterwards, that appearences were false.

Like in that study, even hearing cries of pain from the subjects, and the impression that I was causing it, I would be likely to grince my teeth and tell myself they must be false, this could not be real suffering, and the ones in charge of this study would not do that- there is a mechanism at work here that they are aware of, and I am not.

This can be faulty faith. At the same time, some kind of faith and trust is necessary in such group projects, for it to work.

I am so aware of this when I have to tell my kids to do something that is good for them, but that looks scary for them, or tell my horse to continue approaching that trashcan, even though she is consumed with the perception that it is a horse-eating monster.

That trust is a huge responsibility, and not without some risk for the person carrying it. Because you can abuse of your power only so much before the followers get the idea that they can't trust you... and then you'll get that fake obedience, with backhanded repercussions (as one poster described) or a mutiny which could brew in covert for a while, but will eventually rise and possibly take on a violent backlash.

That is why a lot of times, people choose to avoid that risk and responsibility, and prefer to fill the lower hierarchial roles, being subject to authority.

a reply to: lucifuge


Ummm...NO...I've stated this before yet it bears repeating...I have absolutely no need, desire or wish...to be governed or policed in any fashion or form...by any institution or individual or group...

I can perform all of those functions on my own...thank you very much...

Anyone who feels they need to be policed in order to live amongst their fellows has not reached the requisite level of maturity to function on their own and no doubt need a mommy or daddy figure to regulate their behavior...Anyone that needs to be governed in their behavior and have laws written for their conduct is also not mature enough to function without mom and pop...

If one lives his/her life peaceably...being responsible for their actions and seeks no harm to any other...then you have no need of any authority over you and in fact become said authority over self...yet only for yourself and no other...(children being another matter entirely)...

I live in the country...like my neighbors...we have mutual defense strategies...we look after one another yet leave the governance of each others affairs to each household...I cultivate an attitude of compassion and desire to harm no one or to control any others actions...Adversely...I practice and provide for the defense of my home and have the requisite tools to accomplish said...yet my first instinct is an open curious nature that is satisfied by visits to this website and other venues...in an effort to expand my knowledge base...

Again...NO...




YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

Do you mean to say you have never had a job as an employee, with a hierarchial superior?
Never been a student, a soldier, or taken part in a group project like a barn raising, in which somebody had the blueprints and took charge of direction?

I'm for independence, don't get me wrong (otherwise I wouldn't be living in a veritable fortress on a mountain as a prepper )

But you don't feel there is a context for everything, and that a collective effort doesn't require a "head" for focus?
Do you find that everyone doing their own thing can be just as effective in a team?
(I'm not being sarcastic, by the way, this sincere interest in your view)

a reply to: Bluesma


Ummm...submission is just not in my nature...I recognize no authority over me...I work for myself and or always gravitate to the top and become that authority...I was mostly speaking socially however...in the context of politics law and enforcement...

Yes...was a soldier...became the leader...
Yes...was a finish carpenter...read the prints...became the project leader...

I always lead...by letting those led have some level of autonomy in which to operate or perform their duties...by allowing them some level of authority in which to operate it also provides them a level of ownership in the outcome...
I...ALWAYS...praise and reward good effort and make it a habit to never speak down to anyone...especially when any level of reprimand is in order...
People need their dignity and I have absolutely no desire to take that from them...People need respect and I make every effort to foster that in them...

It's amazing the lengths someone will go to achieve such ownership in outcome if their innate human needs are met and they are welcomed into the fold with an honest desire to see them excel...and become greater than they ever thought they could...




YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

I wonder if you recognized the authority from your father growing up.

I find it hard to belive you don't recognize any authority over you. Did you just pop from your moms womb leader of the world? I highly doubt that. I feel a strong sense of denial for some reason in what you say.

a reply to: Terminal1


Ummm...if you can't trust yourself to police your own actions or govern your own nature...then by all means...submit...
If that's how you choose to live your life...in submission...then by all means keep on keeping on...I'm not responding so that you'll become convinced of anything...I've never approached any response to anyone on this site with that mindset...I simply have no wish to be that authority over you or anyone else and I don't accept that in any way from you or anyone else either...It's only been my desire to elevate myself to a position where I make decisions for my own actions...unfortunately it's been my experience that such pursuits tend to leave one in positions of authority over others...

I wish it were that everyone that I've ever had the misfortune to have authority over had taken the requisite responsibility to perform in such a way that authority was never needed...however...if I choose not to police you or govern your thoughts, motives and actions then that allows you the freedom of your own belief system...uncolored by any action, thought or choice of mine...I'm not concerned with how or what you believe...I would ask you the same respect...and not try to ascribe to me what you might find lacking in your own life, character, or belief system...

If you had...honestly...read my posts...without...preconception...you would have had all of your questions answered...reading comprehension is a skill not accomplished by overt selectivity...but by consideration of the text provided...in it's full measure...not abridging to what one wishes to perceive beyond the original intent of the author...

Before you make any more cheap shots or aspersions into my character for a quick few stars...I will answer you this...I AM the leader of my world.......Are you the...follower...in yours...?

Feel away brother...feel away...






YouSir

Interesting subject, I'm downloading the video now but watched this one for the first time last night. There certainly is a psychological aspect to authority, especially if they dress in some uniform.



For myself, I haven't been around much interfering authority figures for so long that when it happens in the future I will definitely argue back and demand to see their credentials before any possible compliance. I try to live outside the system as much as possible, but you at least gotta have your toes in the water a bit.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed


When we are afraid to speak when we should then we are subservient tools or live in a hostile environment.

Submission is just not my thing. We have Police officers who wouldn't obey their own orders if the rolls were reversed and don't get me started on TSA. I am a pilot and I don't like to fly anymore. I suppose my philosophy is stick it to the man when you can.

a reply to: YouSir

I see. Thanks for your sincerity and openess. I think some people just feel innately drawn to positions of leadership. I know I will tend to gravitate towards that too (probably just from being an eldest sibling). Though I can also recognize and appreciate that same trait in others- and be a follower when it is appropriate. (sometimes you must, when starting out in a certain area of discipline).

But part of my view is that I must recognize and appreciate the value of those under my leadership- without them, I would have no team. So I feel really hesitant to put down those who agree to be under my direction as somehow "flawed" or immature. (I'm obviously not a real Ayn Rand fan )

a reply to: Bluesma


Ummm...Thank you BluesMa...Actually I think you are a fan of Ayn Rand...for you have both asked and answered the question...Who is John Galt...?




YouSir

Authority is funny like that.

If a body of power comes down on you and your family and says they're going to destroy you if you don't do what they want, you've got two choices- comply or don't.

Choosing between bad and worse sucks, but we all do it every day.


Pay your taxes, or else.

originally posted by: YouSir
a reply to: Terminal1


Ummm...if you can't trust yourself to police your own actions or govern your own nature...then by all means...submit...
If that's how you choose to live your life...in submission...then by all means keep on keeping on...I'm not responding so that you'll become convinced of anything...I've never approached any response to anyone on this site with that mindset...I simply have no wish to be that authority over you or anyone else and I don't accept that in any way from you or anyone else either...It's only been my desire to elevate myself to a position where I make decisions for my own actions...unfortunately it's been my experience that such pursuits tend to leave one in positions of authority over others...

I wish it were that everyone that I've ever had the misfortune to have authority over had taken the requisite responsibility to perform in such a way that authority was never needed...however...if I choose not to police you or govern your thoughts, motives and actions then that allows you the freedom of your own belief system...uncolored by any action, thought or choice of mine...I'm not concerned with how or what you believe...I would ask you the same respect...and not try to ascribe to me what you might find lacking in your own life, character, or belief system...

If you had...honestly...read my posts...without...preconception...you would have had all of your questions answered...reading comprehension is a skill not accomplished by overt selectivity...but by consideration of the text provided...in it's full measure...not abridging to what one wishes to perceive beyond the original intent of the author...

Before you make any more cheap shots or aspersions into my character for a quick few stars...I will answer you this...I AM the leader of my world.......Are you the...follower...in yours...?

Feel away brother...feel away...

YouSir

I think we need to define "submit" because I think that our definitions differ.

Personally I think there are times when you must yield to another person. This does not necessarily mean to give up control of thoughts and actions to another. I think this is where we differ or have a misunderstanding of sorts.

Submit is not necessarily a bad word in application. I submitted to my father because he was the main teacher in my life so I yielded a lot to his knowledge and wisdom. When I was a soldier myself I submitted to the DI in basic (really OSUT) because in raising your hand and becoming 'Government Issue' it was protocol which I knew going in. I also was a frame carpenter and starting into that trade I yielded a lot to the knowledge of those who had more experience and knowledge than I until I gained my own experiences in that trade. I am also married so there are times I have to yield to my other half's wishes if I still want my food to magically appear on the table and clean clothes magically appear in my wardrobe.

To read what you say that you have never submitted to anyone just doesn't make sense. I took you as being a self centered know-it-all because my take in this journey called life there has to be a balance in all aspects. You seem to be out of balance in your posts and I called you out on it.

originally posted by: IvanAstikov
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

That person was me. If you are asked by a lawful official if you have firearms and you say no, when really you have lots of them secreted around in convenient to reach places, you are being dishonest AND ultra-paranoid.

But there is no law that can legally compel me or any lawful gun owner to respond to some question like this from any official, lawful or not.

Maybe that so called "lawful official" is actually the one who is being PARANOID by even asking lawful citizens if they own any firearms. In fact it IS. Not maybe.

And I expect everyone knows this as true.

What you are saying only proves what I said before even further. You really ought to start thinking independently, rather than parroting what you think the anti gun crowd is pushing. They are the ones being dishonest in the first place and this dishonesty has glaring spotlights shining on it that I can see easily, and everyone else too.

a reply to: Terminal1


Ummm...Look...I have plainly stated that there are many instances in my life when I have been in a subordinate position...

I'm not sure what you find odd about that...I also stated that in every instance I left subordination behind to play the leadership role...

I went on to say that submission is not in my nature and that I abhor being in a position of authority over others...Yet at the same time some persons for whatever reason need to be...led..............I don't require that...I'm a non-conformist that enjoys puzzling things out for myself...That's why I'm very good at diagnostics or troubleshooting...perhaps I should have been a gumshoe or detective...

If life were balanced...then we would not be a territorial warlike species and everyone would be a diplomat spouting double speak out of both sides of their mouth...I personally find it suspect that anyone would claim to have found that golden ratio that humanity has been searching for since it's inception...The only purely balanced Individuals I've ever had the pleasure to study...are no longer extant...in fact quite dead....................One of them from spoiled pork...

Yet...I suppose that each individual seeks some form of balance in their life...I would just argue that they never quite find it...tripping over too much entropy as they attempt to grasp the brass ring...






YouSir