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originally posted by: Abednego
Haven't got the time to see all the links.
But the fact that it can be traced back to the time of Jesus, does not necessarily means that is Jesus. How can you explain the perfect symmetry of the figure in the shroud? Put some paint on your face then put a cloth over, you will see that the figure tend to be distorted.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Christian, but the shroud looks more like a paint job. As for the Oviedo's one. That could be anything.
originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: The angel of light
Excellent thread OP! I am glad they finally took the time to properly inspect and date the Shroud! The people who believe didn't need the verification, also the people who don't believe don't care, but it is nice this information comes out either way! Good find!
The original purpose of the shroud, argues Freeman, is likely to have been as a prop in a kind of medieval, theatrical ceremony that took place at Easter – the “Quem quaeritis?” or “whom do you seek?”
“On Easter morning the gospel accounts of the resurrection would be re-enacted with ‘disciples’ acting out a presentation in which they would enter a makeshift tomb and bring out the grave clothes to show that Christ had indeed risen,” he said.
originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to:Have the integrity to admit that no legitimate scientific tests have been conducted that date the shroud to the time of Christ (ie. the dates commonly ascribed to the lifetime of the myth-man Jesus).
Tangerine
Dear Tangerine,
I honestly want to be polite with you, but now I see clearly what is your problem: you are married with the theories that Jesus is a Myth and not a Historic figure, that are of course pretty difficult to support since anyway this is a figure that is extremely important from the Historical point of view, so this is the real reason for which you are so much shocked with this thread.
I am so sorry but my interest is with Science and with the objective truth that is behind this fact, my profession is Statistics so I found interesting to discuss the data analysis and the Robust statistics techniques used by these scientists, to arrive to their claims, I am not compromised with any belief at all with respect to the shroud.
I feel this is what is happening with you, you are so much attached with a point of view, almost at fundamentalist level not at rational one, that you consider absolutely true what you believe so you are not open at all to explore it without passion, you are blinded by your own prejudgments.
Here the problem is not of Integrity is that you are discussing about opinions, while I am talking about Science.
Sorry, but I left you with your own personal subjective ideas on the topic, I respect them, but they are not of my interest.
Thanks,
The Angel of Lightness
Using robust Statistical analysis as an alternative methods of dating that are applicable to the Shroud, experiments done by the Italian Scientist Giolio Fanti, are dating the Shroud from 280 BC and the year 220 AD.
A statistical model has highlighted the systematic tendency to change: if for a few centimeters of fabric there are differences in 200 years, it’s easy to think that there are thousands years of variations along the nearly 4.5 m of the Shroud, possibly caused by the mysterious energy that produced the image.
To date the Shroud using alternative methods both Raman and FT-IR tests have been used to obtain two different chemical datings with the collaboration of professors Anna Tinti and Pietro Baraldi respectively of the universities of Bologna and Modena.
In addition a multiparametric mechanical method have been used at Padua University after the construction of a new ad-hoc machine capable to acquire the results of loading and unloading cycles of single linen fibers.
Using a petrographic microscope Fanti was able to separate Shroud linen fibers from dust particles vacuumed from Shroud; the fibers have been mounted on suitable supports and then, with Dr. Pierandred Malfi performed tests of tension and compression after analizing about a dozen of antique fabrics (from bandages of mummies Egyptians of 3,000 BC, linens of Masada (Israel, 70 AD) and Medieval tissues up to recent ones.
Five mechanical parameters (tensile strength, Young’s modulus in direct and reverse cycle, loss factor and loss factor in reverse cycle) have been selected to obtain five different age-dependent curves of the samples.
After this Fanti has measured the corresponding mechanical properties of the Shroud finding the corresponding point on the scales just determined. Combining the five mechanical results, the following date for the Shroud results: 400 AD with an uncertainty of plus or minus 400 years at a 95% confidence level.
With Raman and FT-IR spectra the Italian team measured the concentration of particles of particular atomic groups of flax fibers. At the same confidence level, the first produced the date of 200 BC with an uncertainty of plus or minus 500 years, the latter that of the 300 BC with swings forward and back of 400 years.
Combining the two chemical methods with the mechanical one it results a mean date of 33 BC with an uncertainty of plus or minus 250 years at 95% confidence level that is compatible with the period in which Jesus Christ lived in Palestine.
originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: aorAki
Possibly they don't say nothing for you, but well it is clear that this is a thread that was opening to discuss Statistics methods on data analysis so it require more than just basic reading skills, you need to investigate what the authors are saying, if you don't want to rely on me.
Thanks,
The Angel of Lightness
originally posted by: The angel of light
The material that was posted to open this thread is contained in various links that anybody can investigate is not mine. I don't have nothing to do with it, but it belong to Scientists of so reputed European Universities as Padua, Bologna, Modena , Udine, Parma and London. Laboratories of those Universities are the ones that have been working on experiments that validate the findings of Dr Giulio Fanti , who is the principal author of the book that is releasing to the public the entire research.
I would also add that I can not know if Fanti has correctly identified the fibers of the Shroud, distinguishing them from other fibers collected from the extractor, such as those of cloth or filter support, but that would be material of a more recent age than the Shroud itself and not could provide a dating at the time of Christ. In short, I believe that the results are unreliable, not for any doubts about the origin of the material, but for the inadequacy of the methods used.