The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Cheers for that I like to learn stuff and now I have .

a reply to: budski
I found it to be a really insightful film. I remember the bit where there was a child who's single mother had to work three jobs and had left the child with a relation who just happened to have a gun in a draw which the child found. He took it to school and shot a little girl - so sad.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Watch the film called 'Bowling for Columbine' which explores the reason why there is so much gun crime in America compared to other countries -

It's an agenda flick. 8 Lies Told in Bowling for Columbine The reason why there is so much gun crime in America is very simple. Its because criminals don't follow the gun laws. There is no reason to take away gun self defense from law abiding citizens. In fact if that happened then there would be more innocent people dying because they wouldn't be able to defend themselves.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

But one must question what turns one into a criminal.
If everyone felt supported and was supported would there not be less criminals?
I really like this quote at the moment:
'The field is the sole governing agency of the particle' Albert Einstein.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: joemoe

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: ColeYounger
I don't claim to have the answers regarding gun control. Both sides of the debate use statistics, anecdotes and
their own rationale for making their case.
I do know this:
If two violent thugs break into your home in the middle of the night, a gun can easily make the difference between life and death. That is a fact. It simply cannot be refuted. Case closed.

Is the minute chance of a home invasion worth over 30,000 lives per year?

And it really is a very, very small chance.

30,000 deaths is very deceptive because it includes suicides and defensive gun use (both police and private citizens). The homicide rate by guns is about 11k according to the CDC. 80% of those are gang related. In 2011, there are 2,220 non gang related homicides in the US.

But surely that suggests even more strongly that gun control is needed.

FWIW, 11k is still far too many imo.

You don't want Gun control...

You began this thread in an attempt to rationalise removing all Guns from American society...

Classic sophism.


Also that 11k is 100% less than the amount of defensive use of Guns.


More sophism.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: budski
a reply to: Vasa Croe

If you can post the correlation using anything other than anecdotal evidence, your point MIGHT have some credence, otherwise it's bullplop.
You SAY that gun ownership went up, and you keep saying it correlates, but I've yet to see this.

No..YOU said gun ownership is up. Directly from your OP:

Put quite simply, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that more guns = more deaths from guns,

So now you are suggesting that gun ownership has gone down?

But OK...I will bite. Here is the FBI NICS background checks for weapons. While there is no stat to show that these weapons were actually purchased, I think the conclusion can be drawn that these background checks were not just done for fun...

Source

See that HUGE increase from 1998 to 2015?

Let's try ONE more time to see if you can address this at all...you asked for it and there it is from our own FBI stats. A direct correlation between background checks to buy guns from 1995 on that shows the massive increase in checks follows the same scale as the massive decrease in homicides.

How about both together on the same page?

Your stat from the OP article:

My stat from the FBI:

All that shows is that handgun deaths have fallen, and gun ownership in general has increased.
There is no correlation until you paint a complete picture.
What type of guns is perhaps more important than guns in general.
For all you know those increases in ownership have been hunting rifles or shotguns, and it is clear that handguns are the primary weapons used in homicides.

a reply to: boymonkey74

You will love your visit to the states

I went there 4 years ago with a mate and no plans apart from riding motor bikes round the amazing scenery for a few weeks

Breathtaking landscapes,but the long desert roads do get relentless after a while and you end up going like a bat out of hell just to stretch your legs and at the next town a trillion miles away down the long and predictable road:-/

Great place and great people too,genuine Friendly attitude from city dweller to cowboys in the sports bars in the isolated areas

The only person who seemed unfriendly to us was native Indian lady of high age who looked like a smile would crack her face when we walked through one of there reserve museums :-/

Never felt threatened whole trip but have to say was Relieved to get out of Vegas

You will have fun make the plans and go there

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: joemoe

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: ColeYounger
I don't claim to have the answers regarding gun control. Both sides of the debate use statistics, anecdotes and
their own rationale for making their case.
I do know this:
If two violent thugs break into your home in the middle of the night, a gun can easily make the difference between life and death. That is a fact. It simply cannot be refuted. Case closed.

Is the minute chance of a home invasion worth over 30,000 lives per year?

And it really is a very, very small chance.

30,000 deaths is very deceptive because it includes suicides and defensive gun use (both police and private citizens). The homicide rate by guns is about 11k according to the CDC. 80% of those are gang related. In 2011, there are 2,220 non gang related homicides in the US.

But surely that suggests even more strongly that gun control is needed.

FWIW, 11k is still far too many imo.

You don't want Gun control...

You began this thread in an attempt to rationalise removing all guns froms American society...

Classic sophism.


Also that 11k is 100% less than the amount of defensive use of Guns.


More sophism.

Actually, I think gun control would be a good starting point, and I'd like to see all guns removed from every society.
I freely admit that's an idealistic view, but there's nothing wrong with idealism.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Watch the film called 'Bowling for Columbine' which explores the reason why there is so much gun crime in America compared to other countries -

It's an agenda flick. 8 Lies Told in Bowling for Columbine The reason why there is so much gun crime in America is very simple. Its because criminals don't follow the gun laws. There is no reason to take away gun self defense from law abiding citizens. In fact if that happened then there would be more innocent people dying because they wouldn't be able to defend themselves.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

But one must question what turns one into a criminal.
If everyone felt supported and was supported would there not be less criminals?
I really like this quote at the moment:
'The field is the sole governing agency of the particle' Albert Einstein.

What???

Look at Mexico and ask yourself,

is this really a good idea?

a reply to: budski

As I said before the stat that you seem to ignore is that there are at least 100,000 defensive gun use every year according to the National Crime Victimization Survey . I don't know, at least 100k lives saved is much greater than 11k lost (2220 if you take away gang banger shooting each other).

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: joemoe
30,000 deaths is very deceptive because it includes suicides and defensive gun use (both police and private citizens). The homicide rate by guns is about 11k according to the CDC. 80% of those are gang related. In 2011, there are 2,220 non gang related homicides in the US.

Only 2,220 non gang related homicides? That's not all gun deaths either, right? That's a HUGE difference from the 30,000 a year claim. I'm glad you posted this information. It's comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Does it really matter?
Those guns have gotten into society somehow.
The gangs didn't magic them out of thin air.

The gun was to hand when someone wanted to take their life. If there was a more difficult option, maybe that person could have been saved.

a reply to: thesaneone

No, the sad thing is none of you actually see the problem of 100.000 unnecessary death or injury each year(all incl. you can subtract some, the number is taken from 2010 total incidents).

If the same amount of people died or got ill from drinking tap water, you would all scream for the government to do something, because something is clearly wrong.

But i guess it's just collateral damage for keeping one right( I know it leads to other rights than owning a gun).

The whole point is that an insane amount of innocent people gets murdered or injured every year, simply because it's so easy to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

And no one gives a #, because the dead can't complain.

If you are alive and discuss the issue, they will just tell you bee's are also deadly, they can cause a car crash if unlucky, so problem solved...

A 100.000 is a 100.000 to much, you can defend your rights all day long, it doesn't change the facts.....

Nothings gonna change, and that is pretty much it, now you can only hope you don't get calculated into the statistics, good luck...

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
I remember the bit where there was a child who's single mother had to work three jobs and had left the child with a relation who just happened to have a gun in a draw which the child found. He took it to school and shot a little girl - so sad.

Info Here Not exactly. The boy was a known bully who was in trouble before and after the gun incident (a stabbing). And the 'relation' he was left with was his uncle who was running a crack house with his wife (the kids aunt). The gun used was not legally owned. It has been stolen and used as payment to the crack house.

It's sad for the little girl who died, but it goes to show that the gun used was illegal and the only reason it was there was because of people not obeying the law. Again, there is no reason to take guns away from law abiding citizens. It wasn't a legally owned weapon that was used to shoot the little girl.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Do you think it was a good idea for heston to turn up to push his agenda and political views?
Slightly off topic, I know, but that really pissed me off.

a reply to: budski

It's not idealistic it's tyrannical.

a reply to: budski

But surely that suggests even more strongly that gun control is needed.

FWIW, 11k is still far too many imo.

Dude... more people die from the flu! More people die just driving to the store! More people die from drinking and smoking cigarettes! Are you just ignoring all of the logical fallacies you are espousing or do you just not care? It has to be one or the other.

Its a sad fact of life that people die. Do you know how many people are sold into sex slavery annually?

Yet Americans and guns are the problem.

It has been said numerous times already just within the context of this thread but I suppose it needs repeating: you live in the UK American gun laws are simply none of your business. There is literally no way to peacefully repeal any or all gun legislation at this point. It will be viewed (rightly so) as enemy action. If you think Americans will not do something about it you are either blind or cognitively impaired on a serious level.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: joemoe
30,000 deaths is very deceptive because it includes suicides and defensive gun use (both police and private citizens). The homicide rate by guns is about 11k according to the CDC. 80% of those are gang related. In 2011, there are 2,220 non gang related homicides in the US.

Only 2,220 non gang related homicides? That's not all gun deaths either, right? That's a HUGE difference from the 30,000 a year claim. I'm glad you posted this information. It's comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Does it really matter?
Those guns have gotten into society somehow.
The gangs didn't magic them out of thin air.

The gun was to hand when someone wanted to take their life. If there was a more difficult option, maybe that person could have been saved.

Complain about "what ifs"...

& then use "maybes"...



LoL I'm out.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: budski

It's not idealistic it's tyrannical.

So wanting the world in general to be a safer place is tyrannical.

Yeah, that makes sense.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: budski
a reply to: Vasa Croe

If you can post the correlation using anything other than anecdotal evidence, your point MIGHT have some credence, otherwise it's bullplop.
You SAY that gun ownership went up, and you keep saying it correlates, but I've yet to see this.

No..YOU said gun ownership is up. Directly from your OP:

Put quite simply, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that more guns = more deaths from guns,

So now you are suggesting that gun ownership has gone down?

But OK...I will bite. Here is the FBI NICS background checks for weapons. While there is no stat to show that these weapons were actually purchased, I think the conclusion can be drawn that these background checks were not just done for fun...

Source

See that HUGE increase from 1998 to 2015?

Let's try ONE more time to see if you can address this at all...you asked for it and there it is from our own FBI stats. A direct correlation between background checks to buy guns from 1995 on that shows the massive increase in checks follows the same scale as the massive decrease in homicides.

How about both together on the same page?

Your stat from the OP article:

My stat from the FBI:

All that shows is that handgun deaths have fallen, and gun ownership in general has increased.
There is no correlation until you paint a complete picture.
What type of guns is perhaps more important than guns in general.
For all you know those increases in ownership have been hunting rifles or shotguns, and it is clear that handguns are the primary weapons used in homicides.

That is from YOUR article as I have pointed out SOOOO many times now it is ridiculous.

Your OP doesn't mention anything about what type of gun is used, so again you are trying to skew whatever numbers to make it fit your agenda.

Facts are facts man....handguns are the most used firearm in homicides by firearm. Handgun homicides went down dramatically and this corresponds to weapons permit checks dramatically increasing.

I can keep going here with number of handguns though, just to keep burying you in your own thread:

Source

That is the 2007-2011 FBI data on type of firearm used in homicides. They decline in EVERY category for all but one year....fits the other data I have posted and again proves you incorrect.

This argument gets old when the one posing the argument is wrong then continues to move the posts and tries to get more and more finite in the argument, only digging the hole of FAIL deeper with each post.

Your OP is there for all to read and based on your statements and your own data/sources in those statements, you are completely wrong and unaware of any of the actual stats you are claiming to be true.

I have shown multiple times over where you are incorrect, yet you continue to ask for more, and I continue to show you more, continuing to prove that you are wrong.