Gamergate and Cyber Bullying

This little clip here is the best summed up #GamerGate pieces:



Ops and those opposing GG, from what I see here in ATS (for shame) are misrepresenting the issue. Yes, there is a discussion going on about social commentary pushing its unwelcome grubby hands into art..but the heart of GG is about being just go--amn transparent. corrupt journalism is rampant in every medium. GG is about that towards games journalism specifically..a laser focus on that and that alone.

originally posted by: Daedalus

And yes, the initial assertion was that she had sex with Nathan Grayson, in exchange for a positive review of her game, but further research and analysis, revealed that this was not the case.

Who researched it?
Who does NG work for?

Correct though, there was no positive review..that is miswording the aGGros trip up on and stand on to dismiss it all. Favorable coverage is what happened, there was no review technically speaking.
Just like you can not review a new ford as a car dealer to discuss its worth..however, if you are discussing cars in general and keep bringing up the new ford (that you didn't review technically) as the new way for cars to be..that is gonna stir up some crap. Especially if you are having a "close relationship" with the maker of the ford.

Nobody gives a crap about Zoe. Zoe was the one that shoved herself into the debate to twist it into some weird sexism thing verses a corruption scandal by Grayson.

But again, who investigated the alligations against Kotaku?
...
oh, right...Kotaku investigated Kotaku and decided that Kotaku did nothing wrong. (although they posted what went wrong even as they said nothing was wrong.)

I look forward to Hannity investigating Hannity to see if Hannity is a corrupt jerkwad. I am sure he will be fair and balanced.

originally posted by: amazing
What needs to happen? If you really want to talk about ethics and all of that other crap, do in under a different flag or pretext and stay away from gamergate.

No
Whatever tag you use to go against the media, the media will ALWAYS corrupt it.

Do it solo without any tag to unify and absolutely nothing will happen.

These past few days, The Escapist fired all their aGG staff and hired on GG staff because they realize that this movement isn't stopping, and the truth is most definitely coming out day by day.
The only ones truly left opposing GG now are the most cultish types that demand GG is little more than sexist jerks..but daily more and more go either neutral, or full on GG.
TotalBiscuit, Mark Kern, Escapist, pewdiepie is now starting to weigh in (on the side of GG), more people in #notyourshield are making loud noise.

Whats left are professional victims desperately trying to stay relevant so they can cash in on their patreon and pro-victim celeb status..but they are becoming irrelevant day by day

Puritans and corruptors will not win, period.

No new hash tags, no new ideas, no membership fees. it is what it is, it stands for what it stands for, and those opposing GG are simply opposing defense of transparency in journalism, and artistic freedom.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: amazing
What needs to happen? If you really want to talk about ethics and all of that other crap, do in under a different flag or pretext and stay away from gamergate.

No
Whatever tag you use to go against the media, the media will ALWAYS corrupt it.

Do it solo without any tag to unify and absolutely nothing will happen.

These past few days, The Escapist fired all their aGG staff and hired on GG staff because they realize that this movement isn't stopping, and the truth is most definitely coming out day by day.
The only ones truly left opposing GG now are the most cultish types that demand GG is little more than sexist jerks..but daily more and more go either neutral, or full on GG.
TotalBiscuit, Mark Kern, Escapist, pewdiepie is now starting to weigh in (on the side of GG), more people in #notyourshield are making loud noise.

Whats left are professional victims desperately trying to stay relevant so they can cash in on their patreon and pro-victim celeb status..but they are becoming irrelevant day by day

Puritans and corruptors will not win, period.

No new hash tags, no new ideas, no membership fees. it is what it is, it stands for what it stands for, and those opposing GG are simply opposing defense of transparency in journalism, and artistic freedom.

only half right...those opposing gamergate, are against the trolls, the vitriolic hate, the rape and death threats, the anti feminism, the anti free speach the mens rights activists etc. That's what I'm against.

I'm not against ethics in gaming and journalistic integrity. I'm all for it, but I can't push that under the gamergate banner because of all the wackos..including adam Baldwin. He's very anti gay. I don't support that. So...now what?

You can see that I have some points right?

Apologize if this was already posted in this thread: the guy that made the video of driving his car over to attack Wu was actually "a character, and the post [was] a misconceived joke designed to lampoon GamerGaters" and continues...

"Jace Connors’ real name is Jan Rankowski. Rankowski is a 20-year-old from Maine and member of comedy group Million Dollar Extreme."

Outside link:
Link

i dont really have anything else to say about the whole 'issue' other than its been pretty sad that people have gotten so worked up about something so narrow and obtuse (specific to this one slice of video games and missing the forest for the trees)

originally posted by: amazing
A couple of points then.

I equate anyone that threatens rape to be a rapist. That's splitting hairs, I guess but I take that stuff seriously and there have been multiple documented rape threats to female gamers, gaming journalists etc.

No, Amazing, that's not "splitting hairs"...that's redefining reality, to fit a bias...it's full-on f**king MENTAL...

There's nothing wrong with taking that sort of thing seriously....but only when it's warranted. Scary tweets, posted by puerile little twits on the internet, are not worth taking seriously.

It's interesting that you say there have been multiple documented rape threats....do you suppose you could provide something to substantiate this claim? I understand the nature of the subject matter is rather objectionable, but still, i can't just take your word for it.

gamergate has been hijacked, in my opinion, but lets define that. If ten people have a movement and 1 person takes it over..and hijacks it controlling the discussion....the ration isn't fair but it's still hijacked. and though not calling themselves gamergaters or flying the banner many of these haters, trolls and rapists pile on in any gamergate discussion. You can tell them by how negative they are, how hateful and divisive and threatening and insulting.

Now, while opinions are, by their very nature, completely subjective, and are neither absolutely correct, nor absolutely incorrect, they can be based on bad information......for instance, if i say i think coffee is bad for you, because someone told me it causes liver failure....kinda absurd, right?

This entire paragraph is loaded with bad logic, and outright nonsense...

Firstly, in your example, it suggests that a minority within GG has hijacked it, and turned it into a movement about hate....this is patently insane, for two primary reasons...firstly, this "controlling minority" doesn't exist, and secondly, because only the IMAGE of GG has been hijacked, and that was done by external forces (Gaming media, MSM, Sarkeesian/Quinn/Wu, etc)

The rest of it consists of an argument that is more or less the reverse of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy...by that, i mean, that you're basically saying that they're ALL "True Scotsmen", despite evidence to the contrary.

What is the reality.

The reality is that you are horribly misinformed, and seem to have a penchant for hyperbole.

Gamergate is what? Ten thousand peeps with another ten thousand on the periphery that aren't directly under it but pile on in these discussions. These peripheral 10 thousand people have hijacked it and continue to pile on. Those ten thousand are so loud and obnoxous that I can't even hear the sane ones speak anymore.

Firstly, GG is a lot bigger than ten-thousand. Secondly, again, regular internet trolls are NOT GG....you're conflating the two, again, to give your flawed argument legs... The only parties that have "Hijacked" anything about GG, are the gaming press, the msm, the "literally whos", and the whole SJW/RadFem community...and they've only hijacked the IMAGE...and by that, i mean, they are CLAIMING it's about things that it's not. It's being portrayed in a way that is factually inaccurate, and at times, outright false.

If that's the truth, then what do you do? I still think, my opinion, and my perception, is that it's hijacked. I could be wrong. but I laid out why I think that.

Well, you're in luck, because it's not the truth....you really should try studying BOTH sides of an issue, before forming an opinion..

I came up with 10 thousand by doing several google searches. It seems to be about right but you may be able to do further research and find other numbers.

I'd be very interested in seeing how you did that "research"....the number seems almost as if it was plucked from the air, at random..

And lets talk about Ben Spruill, Todd Kincannon, Andrew Auernheimer, even Adam Baldwin( who compares homosexuality to incest) Robert Stacy McCain, Davis Aurini, Paul Elam( from a voice for men-that's a mens rights website that hates women)

The only people in that list that i've even heard of are Baldwin, and Aurini.....i guess the others aren't that popular....

Do you have citation for Baldwin comparing Homosexuality to Incest?

And it's funny that you post this list of people who are allegedly bad, when the anti side has a similar list of people who are outright f**king evil.....like, Ian Miles Cheong, for example.....the asian white supremacist.. theralphretort.com... . A simple google search, will show you more....

And he's looked up to as some sort of "hero" on the anti-side....is that who you really wanna throw your lot in with?

I could go on and on but THESE are who ARE posting under the gamergate hashtag.. they aren't very nice people.

And the same could be said for the more prominent people on the anti-side....i'll need more than just "these people are bad because i said so".

a reply to: SaturnFX

holy feck....we actually agree on something?

This is what i'm talking about.....GG has united people of all kinds....

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Who researched it?

The community.

Who does NG work for?

Currently, Nathan Grayson works for Kotaku, a site in the Gawker Media family. Before that, he wrote for RPS.

Correct though, there was no positive review..that is miswording the aGGros trip up on and stand on to dismiss it all. Favorable coverage is what happened, there was no review technically speaking.
Just like you can not review a new ford as a car dealer to discuss its worth..however, if you are discussing cars in general and keep bringing up the new ford (that you didn't review technically) as the new way for cars to be..that is gonna stir up some crap. Especially if you are having a "close relationship" with the maker of the ford.

It's funny....That wasn't invented by the Anti-GG side...that was the initial assertion, during "quinnspiracy", before GG...

The allegation was that she slept with the "five guys", in order to advance her career, and get positive reviews for her absolutely dismal little game. As i said earlier, once the adults entered the equation, and looked at the information, and started looking into it, it was found that this original assertion was untrue, and there was consensus, based on facts... Nobody with two brain-cells to rub together still claims that she banged dudes for reviews, as that claim has been completely debunked....HOWEVER, this hasn't stopped the Anti-GG crowd from claiming that this is still a claim being made by GG...

Anyway, yes, favorable coverage is what happened....it's been proven that they were good friends when he wrote his article for RPS, about upcoming indie titles, in which, he highlights DQ, using a screenshot from it, as the main article image, and mentioning it by name, describing it as "powerful Twine darling Depression Quest". The second article was about the failed pepsi game jam....this article featured his friends Quinn, and Arnott, prominently.

According to the best timeline the community can put together, at no time, when he was writing about Quinn, was Grayson actually having sex with her....not that it matters. Even writing favorable articles about close friends, is unethical.

Nobody gives a crap about Zoe.

Yet here she is....again....like that one annoying piece of paper that hangs onto the inside of the bowl, and won't flush.....

Zoe was the one that shoved herself into the debate to twist it into some weird sexism thing verses a corruption scandal by Grayson.

Well, the initial "quinnspiracy" thing actually WAS about hating on Quinn..it was very puerile, and idiotic...but then people with brains and maturity got a look at the information, and that was when GG was born....

But again, who investigated the alligations against Kotaku?

Um...the community?

oh, right...Kotaku investigated Kotaku and decided that Kotaku did nothing wrong. (although they posted what went wrong even as they said nothing was wrong.)

Well, that's really only half right....see, John Bain(AKA TotalBiscuit) interviewed Stephen Totilo. In that interview, Totilo said he understood where people were coming from, but still didn't think that the alleged ethical breaches were really a problem....which, was very disappointing. Kotaku has updated their ethics policy, as a result of GG...so that's a good thing, right?

As to actual breaches at Kotaku, all anyone ever talked about was Nathan Grayson....hardly ANYONE EVER mentions Patricia Hernandez....she should have been outright fired....yet she's still there, writing worthless clickbait articles, after using her position to promote and sell products made by people she was living with, and sleeping with.....

I look forward to Hannity investigating Hannity to see if Hannity is a corrupt jerkwad. I am sure he will be fair and balanced.

ROFL!

While we're at it...O'Reilly on O'reilly?

originally posted by: amazing
only half right...those opposing gamergate, are against the trolls, the vitriolic hate, the rape and death threats, the anti feminism, the anti free speach the mens rights activists etc. That's what I'm against.

And somehow, you COMPLETELY miss the fact that GG is being portrayed as a hate-group....as being made up entirely of the worst people in the world...it's being sold as the worst s**t since satan. They say that it was never about ethics in games journalism, and that this is just something that was made up, as a cover for their hate. None of this is true.

They would have you think that ALL gamers are evil people....they are defaming an entire cultural demorgaphic....and you actually not only believe, but EMBRACE this BS..

I'm not against ethics in gaming and journalistic integrity. I'm all for it, but I can't push that under the gamergate banner because of all the wackos..including adam Baldwin. He's very anti gay. I don't support that. So...now what?

Got some citations for Baldwin?

And what wackos?

And if you're in favor of ethics in games journalism, then everything's cool, because that's what GG is about.

You can see that I have some points right?

No, you really don't....you're misinformed, and appear to have no issue with "guilt by association".....Saturn and I rarely agree on anything, because our political views are VERY different from one another...the fact that we agree on GG shows that this isn't a partisan issue, and that it attracts people from all stripes of life...

doesn't sound terribly bigoted or hateful to me..

originally posted by: amazing


only half right...those opposing gamergate, are against the trolls, the vitriolic hate, the rape and death threats, the anti feminism, the anti free speach the mens rights activists etc. That's what I'm against.

I'm not against ethics in gaming and journalistic integrity. I'm all for it, but I can't push that under the gamergate banner because of all the wackos..including adam Baldwin. He's very anti gay. I don't support that. So...now what?

You can see that I have some points right?

Of course I see your points. I had them also initially, then I realized that any opposition will point out the worst of a crowd and suggest that is the norm.
Hate islam? point out terrorist and radicals, then say islam is poisoned because it is either nothing but terrorist or radicals, or those complicit
Hate Christians? point out pedo priests and the WBC..
Hate consumer revolts? point out the dirty hippys in occupy wall street or the anonymous trolls in GG

Gotta move past it and see that its all a distraction the opposition of the revolt is trying to keep propped up.
There will never, ever be a grassroots movement going against a large corporation or media (in this case, it is both) that isn't immediately smeared in the worst possible way to make sure it never gains traction.








Stand with people to fight corporate and media lies, or step aside...standing with them to attack art and silence facts is just...weird..(ESPECIALLY for a proper liberal)

Keep in mind what it is to be a liberal..what its meant to be (not the progressive weirdos, but a proper traditional liberal). Facts, expression, acceptance. This is the core traits of what GG is...and everyday it becomes a bit more understood. aGGs become neutral, neutrals understand the core, etc..and you can't stand by the "well some people in that leaderless movement are jerks, therefore the whole group is jerky" excuse..it simply doesn't work under any guise.


Fox News: OWS is a bunch of hippy freeloaders that should be ignored and arguably arrested. we will never give them positive coverage

MSNBC: Tea Party is a bunch of racist rich dudes that only hate Obama. they should be ignored and arguably arrested. we will never give them positive coverage

GameJournPro: Gamergate is a bunch of soggy kneed trolls that should be ignored and arguably arrested. we will never give them positive coverage.

At least this last bit unites libs and cons under the same banner, both being stung from leaderless movements before and the media painting any/all movements that goes against their narrative in a bad light.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: SaturnFX

holy feck....we actually agree on something?

This is what i'm talking about.....GG has united people of all kinds....

a reply to: SaturnFX

lol.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of this:

a reply to: Daedalus

So Adam Baldwin first...

I realize it Huff post in the link, but the quotes are real and you can find them with lots of other sources.

He compares homosexuality with Incest...That's pretty ignorant and hateful. I'm just saying. He's the guy that coined the term gamergate.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Secondly --ethics and gamergate

You do realize still...no matter how much you want to argue against it that a whiny little man started all this by publicly going on about his break up with Zoe Quinn.

So the movement...and Zoe Quinn's first hate from the internet trolls started with her ex boyfriend and then a known hater..Adam Baldwin created the hashtag. And that's the movement you want to get behind.

Ethics and all that came later.

When I say it was hijacked, I mean by trolls like this guy...
Jan Rankowski...No matter what he says, he's both an internet troll and mentally unhinged.

nypost.com...

These are the guys that are hijacking and taking over Gamergate. These are the types of trolls it's attracting.

Telling me that this stuff isn't happening doesn't change the fact? I mean....I'm not totally wrong and off base here...

originally posted by: amazing
So Adam Baldwin first...

I realize it Huff post in the link, but the quotes are real and you can find them with lots of other sources.

He compares homosexuality with Incest...That's pretty ignorant and hateful. I'm just saying. He's the guy that coined the term gamergate.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

lol..

It is absolutely hilarious that you post an article that actually diminishes the veracity of your claim, at the end....did you even bother reading the whole thing?

He wasn't likening gay marriage to incest...he was making a deliberately absurd argument, to ridicule what some stupid politician said...

Secondly --ethics and gamergate

You do realize still...no matter how much you want to argue against it that a whiny little man started all this by publicly going on about his break up with Zoe Quinn.

You do realize that "quinnspiracy", and "GamerGate" are two separate events, right?

Oh wait....you don't....which is why you're still trying to conflate the two...

So the movement...and Zoe Quinn's first hate from the internet trolls started with her ex boyfriend and then a known hater..Adam Baldwin created the hashtag. And that's the movement you want to get behind.

Again: lol.

Quinn was receiving hate from the internet WAY before GG..

As shown earlier, you're wrong about Baldwin, and this consumer revolt has nothing to do with the things you seem to think it does...again, i urge you to actually do your homework..

Ethics and all that came later.

Clearly, you have a short memory...

As i stated earlier in this thread, Baldwin's tweet, in which he coined the term "GamerGate", linked to two videos by "InternetAristocrat", talking about journalistic impropriety..some of the assertions in the original videos were a bit off, but they were mostly about the journalism, and raised the important questions with regard to that subject.

So, again, It has ALWAYS been about the journalism.

When I say it was hijacked, I mean by trolls like this guy...
Jan Rankowski...No matter what he says, he's both an internet troll and mentally unhinged.

nypost.com...

How has he hijacked anything?

These are the guys that are hijacking and taking over Gamergate. These are the types of trolls it's attracting.

Again, how has this one person you mentioned, hijacked anything? you can't take over an amorphous consumer revolt...and you make the assertion that "these are the types of trolls it's attracting", despite any evidence that they are actually in any way linked to GG...in fact, the guy you mentioned, was doing what he was doing to MAKE FUN OF GG....

You've still failed to demonstrate how any of this has been done under the GG banner....still claiming they're all "true scotsmen", just because the media says so.. I do hope that you can some day understand that repeating untrue things over and over again, doesn't make them true..

Telling me that this stuff isn't happening doesn't change the fact?

No, simply saying something isn't happening, isn't enough....though i would hope the fact that it isn't, in fact, happening would be enough...

I mean....I'm not totally wrong and off base here...

Actually, you are. Your confirmation bias is astounding..

originally posted by: stosh64
There are real issues in the REAL world.

There's also Skyrim. On a serious note...

This is actually a really big problem in Utah. Mormon doctrine might have something to do with this given that it's blatantly sexist.
 

originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: Daedalus

So Adam Baldwin first...

irrelevant regardless of context what the foundings or any single individual has said.
You want to know what GG was before the 5 guys drama? that's a simple one:

Gamergate is the tag firefly dude used to a thing that has been going on a couple decades now, growing more blatant each year. the mass effect ending outrage(and sweepingly great scores by journalists) may trigger a memory for you.

______________________________long history lesson starts here_________________
But lets start from the beginning:
scans
But it really started kicking off in around 2004 when gaming started becoming a mainstream hobby, replacing other forms of entertainment.
artGamepro Editor explaining how they are being bullied into exposure of games
(incidentally, a clear ethics policy would give the editors equal protection from large corporate gaming outlets forcing exposure/good reviews/etc)
lets move on from there
Kotaku blackballed by Sony Yes, there was a time before Gawker bought kotaku that they were actually doing journalism..and Sony stomped on them for that nonsense. This was in 2007 btw, still no Adam Baldwin in sight.

Bribery to games dev, up to a 5k trip to kotaku for a zero grav ride. weee

Gamespot fires journalist for giving honest review

and that brings us to 2008 finally.
this is where the accounts of crappy journalism goes from odd spots sparking interest to a wave of corruption.
some (of many) gems include:
forums.darkfallonline.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Bad reviews of games hardly played
EA just gives money to journalists for good review of dante's inferno
Iphone app sites demand money for review
microsoft gives Xbox's to journalists at E3..which most love of course



ok, here is where you may be more aware of:
Bioware trying to sneak in perfect metacritic score for DA2
I imagine you are now pulling these recollections of controversy from the back of your mind..lets move on to bigger controversies as of late
Duke Nukem insanity
Around the end of 2011, many journalists and devs started speaking out about the corruption and incestuous relationships journals and devs have. there are too many articles to list here, but will put a second post up if you want this evidence.
Now, skip ahead to 2012 when the mass effect 3 hysteria was going on and journalists were screaming about how awesome it was from front to back, and its the GAMERS who are wrong! The game is great, the gamers are terrible.
and so you start to see the journos separate from their audience
article about those spoiled gamer dorks and their silly need for a comprehensive ending

gaming reviews for money gets exposed..oops

Devil May cry fans have issues with the reinvention, and game journos, now working fully for devs, slam them of course
Stupid gamers!
ok
this is in 2012. gonna stop here as if I go further, it will become a starfield of corruption examples...but its important to note that this is still 2 years before some chick had some relationships with some dude.

--------------------------------------Long History Lesson Ends Here----------------------------------------


Adam Baldwin did not invent Gamergate, Adam Baldwin just pointed at a single example amid a sea of examples and named it.
And so it was named..and from there, a movement was finally formed and a coherent message came forth.

Initially people using the tag were not coherent enough to know what the goal was, other than there was a lot of bs going on. people harassed one another, trying to find a leader to give a drive behind what was going on..and that never came, but the people decided by themselves that this has to change. this corruption in the medium they love has had its day and now its time to clean house and demand transparency, a clear set of rules, and a movement to improving the art and medium.
Ethics policys help all sides.

Who is Adam Baldwin in this movement? he is nobody..he simply gave a name to an event that has been brewing for decades.

(I know you didn't read all the links I offered, that's fine, just eatablishing that GG has been around much longer than Zoe/Adam/Grayson)

Now lets hit the next part:

You do realize still...no matter how much you want to argue against it that a whiny little man started all this by publicly going on about his break up with Zoe Quinn.

The Democratic party started as a way for white farmers to maintain control against the encroaching black population and keep segregation enforced.
Shall we forever hold what is now to the roots?
Do you wear cotton? the cotton industry started on the backs of slavery and racism.

I'm not totally wrong and off base here...

You kinda are. You are focusing exactly where the corrupt media (as shown above) wants you to focus on..you are 100% lost in the perception of an example and unable to see the movement as it is, and what it is trying to do.

You can give the movement to clean up the act of gamejournalpros any hashtag you want and the same thing will happen. a effort to destroy and dismiss do to strawmen springer like distractions.

I understand what you are trying to say...people shouldn't want to be part of GG because the person who coined the phrase did something you found yucky...
But that is perhaps the worst example to drop a movement.

Simple fact is, GG is perhaps one of the few movements that, try as hard as you will, you cannot find corruption in. no special interests care about it, it benefits nobody directly..therefore no giant advertising blitz to counter..yet after 7 months, it still stands stronger than ever and less and less people are labelling it just some hate group (and the ones that are, are treating opposing GG as a cult).

You're on ATS. you know that the point of the board is to ignore the surface hype and dig into what is really going on. now...get digging!

a reply to: SaturnFX

That was a good reply and I thank you for the links. I haven't had time to read everything but I will.

I agree with you that there are ethical issues, maybe criminal in my eyes that need to be addressed and that gamers...

..., which I am one, by the way, more old school than you. I have an original Xbox, Original Wii, Dreamcast, and Super Nintendo hooked up right now. No money for anything better at the moment but it will come. ...

...these gamers were addressing and there was a movement or many movements.. I saw it, I see it.

What I disagree with you is on the gamergate Tag and who is under it. You make it seem like this big umbrella under which everyone who has issues with game reviews, game journalism and ethics in gaming...that we can all unite under.

I can't join you though. I hate unethical people, probably more than you guys, but I will not fly a gamergate banner ever.

I'll write comments and letters and all the other things I do independantly. I don't want to be associated with all these trolls, mens rights activists and antifeminsts that have jumped on the gamergate tag. There are thousands of these people that have been drawn to the gamergate tag. You guys don't seem to understand that or care. It's true, they're really there...

To me gamergate started wrong...and then got worse when it was hijacked by the trolls. There is so much hatred out there for women in the gaming industry and much of it goes under the gamergate banner. Why do you need to cling to it?

I can't get behind a movement that is antifeminst at it's core. You are not, I get that and you are really against unethical behavior in games as seem to be the others on this thread that don't like my opinions on this.

Now let me take a step back.

I will read your links tonight, but as of right now. I can't see how gamergate is anything good and you can't see how my contention that it started wrong and is anti woman is a valid perception.

I'm not sure how to get past either of our views.

originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: SaturnFX

That was a good reply and I thank you for the links. I haven't had time to read everything but I will.

NP, and you can if you want. I got tons more also. but that list was just showing that game journalism/dev has been corrupt for a very long time..since the beginning really

..., which I am one, by the way, more old school than you. I have an original Xbox, Original Wii, Dreamcast, and Super Nintendo hooked up right now. No money for anything better at the moment but it will come. ...

more old school than me? interesting. my first console was the Atari 2600..when it was brand new. Best childhood memory was mom playing pacman with me, and my brother playing missile command
I digress..

What I disagree with you is on the gamergate Tag and who is under it. You make it seem like this big umbrella under which everyone who has issues with game reviews, game journalism and ethics in gaming...that we can all unite under.

a hashtag is not a membership right that only a select few can use..anyone can use it and feel part of the community for whatever reason they want, but the core is what it is.

I'll write comments and letters and all the other things I do independantly.

That's perfectly fine, I mean, your single voice going against corporations will be completely ignored...and should you gather together a few others and unite, it will immediately be squashed under some horrible accusations, but meh, activism is hard...it requires you to take risks, to weather flak from those you argue against.

You guys don't seem to understand that or care. It's true, they're really there...

So?
The biggest voices against feminism are females in the movement actually.
Don't equate feminism with egalitarianism. todays 3rd wave feminism are absolutely nothing like their predecessors who fought for voting rights and equal wages. the loud radical feminists today fight for safe spaces, art censorship, fighting the "patriarchy" and the like. And yes, this movement has been pushing into gaming, and is the convenient excuse that journalists have used against GG to distract from the point.

If you can't beat a person at an argument, then change the argument. They reject discussing the rampant corruption to everyone, and instead just call anyone who points out all this crap as a bunch of sexists.
And yes, there are plenty of anti-feminists in GG, as a response of feminists hearing gamers are sexist..(congrats, you are sexist btw)

is so much hatred out there for women in the gaming industry and much of it goes under the gamergate banner. Why do you need to cling to it?

That sentence is just made of soo much fail that I dont even know where to start..so just gonna chuckle at the profound, incomprehensibly massive amount of ignorance and move on

I can't get behind a movement that is antifeminst at it's core.

at its core is a defense of art and a demand for transparency. Attached to that is telling political agendas to get the flying flip out of our art...no puritans, no censor monkeys, no demand that artists stop making games for their consumers and start making PC games for...nobody.

You are not, I get that and you are really against unethical behavior in games as seem to be the others on this thread that don't like my opinions on this.

Now let me take a step back.

I will read your links tonight, but as of right now. I can't see how gamergate is anything good and you can't see how my contention that it started wrong and is anti woman is a valid perception.

I would say skip the links if you want and just watch this one video

just hit play and watch it...take note of when they discuss controversy

I'm not sure how to get past either of our views.

I don't care really what your views are. but the second you suggest I am sexist is when the gloves come off. You haven't. but I will say, I certainly don't care for todays 3rd wave feminism pushing their way into my art.

I didn't like it when they were attacking heavy metal, dungeons/dragons, games are violent, sci-fi is devil music, etc. Anyone who has a love of any form of art will eventually be labeled some undesirable label due to that..gaming is no different...today it is gamers are sexist horrible people. before it was gamers are violent horrible people. We fought off Jack Thompson and his religo-right wing nuts, we will fight off the Anita/Polygon fringe authoritarian left wing nuts.

But seriously...just hit play and watch..actually watch that video. stop being weirdly cultish about how GG must be anti-women for 20 minutes and view.

And no, you aren't being recruited to be in the GG army, just giving you info. What you do with it is up to you






Extra credit:
meet a non-3rd wave feminist.

originally posted by: amazing
I equate anyone that threatens rape to be a rapist. That's splitting hairs, I guess but I take that stuff seriously and there have been multiple documented rape threats to female gamers, gaming journalists etc.

gamergate has been hijacked, in my opinion, but lets define that. If ten people have a movement and 1 person takes it over..and hijacks it controlling the discussion....the ration isn't fair but it's still hijacked. and though not calling themselves gamergaters or flying the banner many of these haters, trolls and rapists pile on in any gamergate discussion. You can tell them by how negative they are, how hateful and divisive and threatening and insulting.

Could give you a litany of quotes from feminist writers who have suggested men are only good for sex and hitting with trucks. How most men are abusive, should be population controlled, subjected to genocide, are incapable of empathy, and all kinds of moronic statements. Could do this with most 'movements,' it's not specific.

Or we can talk past the damaged souls and hateful voices and have a real conversation. The quickest way to resolve a movement like gamergate is to take its real points seriously. Don't forget the Black Panthers were part of the civil rights movement (I'm not equating gamergate to civil rights in relevance or 'righteousness', but all discussions or movements attract unsavoury or potentially violent characters. Feminism is very experienced in this area! 'Tone policing' isn't exactly an unpopular phrase.)

And lets talk about Ben Spruill, Todd Kincannon, Andrew Auernheimer, even Adam Baldwin( who compares homosexuality to incest) Robert Stacy McCain, Davis Aurini, Paul Elam( from a voice for men-that's a mens rights website that hates women)

Don't know all these persons but I've spoken to persons from 'a voice for men.' I do not agree with them, but they were far from hateful to me at least, and answered all my probing questions with decorum. Their rhetoric and style of writing is not dissimilar to third wave feminist and late second wave feminist writings, keep in mind that there have been a lot of questionable feminist books and writings published over the last several decades ...

Point is that you can easily look for the worst parts of any movement or discussion and find them. You can tell the feminists to solve their misandry problem before speaking. Tell the gamergate crowd to eliminate the negative parts of their movement or get lost. Brand entire subsections of a population as evil and hateful until they say things in a way you appreciate ... It won't ever get you past go on the debate Monopoly board. Actually, if you only listen to those negative (evil?) voices what you're saying is you won't listen until everyone brings it up to that level.

Fact is, these groups wouldn't attract such loud voices if they didn't have some moderate points within them. Listen to those moderate voices, do something about it, and the crazy persons will have to find something else to hijack. Applies to both sides.

Just something to think about.

I'm a feminist. I believe we give angry, irrelevant people who say nothing far too much air time.

originally posted by: amazing
What I disagree with you is on the gamergate Tag and who is under it.

Because you're still only seeing things as the media wants you to see then, and not as they really are.

You make it seem like this big umbrella under which everyone who has issues with game reviews, game journalism and ethics in gaming...that we can all unite under.

Because that's what it is....there's also #NotYourShield, if you fit the bill for that...

I don't want to be associated with all these trolls, mens rights activists and antifeminsts that have jumped on the gamergate tag.

Oh yes...all these evil people that you have utterly failed to prove even exist...

I've asked you HOW MANY times now, for links to materials showing this kind of activity being engaged in, under the GG banner....and you never provide it...

You've been here more than long enough to know that making unsubstantiated claims is frowned upon...

There are thousands of these people that have been drawn to the gamergate tag.

If there's so many, it should be VERY easy to cite a few examples...

You guys don't seem to understand that or care. It's true, they're really there...

It's funny....you keep saying "they're here, they're here", but you never show anything to back it up....you keep claiming something exists, and never giving us anything to corroborate it...

To me gamergate started wrong...

Because you are absolutely misinformed about it, and your confirmation bias keeps you from seeing anything that might disprove the notions in your head...

and then got worse when it was hijacked by the trolls.

Except it's been explained to you that an amorphous consumer revolt can't be hijacked, only the public's perception of it...it's image, can be hijacked, and that is what you are still refusing to accept....

Additionally, since i still need to gain a few more XP to unlock the "Deceased Equine Thrasher" achievement, You've still failed, thus far, to make a case for this alleged troll hijacking you keep claiming has happened.....

Achievement Unlocked
50G - Deceased Equine Thrasher

This seems to be to be a persistent theme with you.. You keep making the same unsubstantiated claims, never provide anything to back them, and hope nobody notices. You're regurgitating the same propaganda talking points that the Anti-GG folks are...the only reason they've been so successful in demonizing gamers, is because the big lie technique is so effective...and it seems you've fallen for it, as well...

There is so much hatred out there for women in the gaming industry and much of it goes under the gamergate banner. Why do you need to cling to it?

I don't know which bit is funnier....your misinformed assertion that there is "so much hatred" for women in the gaming industry, or your absolutely idiotic assertion that we're clinging to said hatred.....

Oh yes, women are SO hated in the industry....which is why there aren't ANY female game devs, or female game journos, or females heading up game studios, game companies...that's why there aren't ANY females, working ANYWHERE in the industry..

....oh, wait.

This "there's so much hatred for women in the industry" B.S. is just another Propaganda talking point, vomited on the public, courtesy of the Anti-GG machine.

I can't get behind a movement that is antifeminst at it's core.

If you actually did your homework, you'd see that GG isn't anti-feminist...we're all for everyone...we don't discriminate.

the "GG is anti-woman" myth is killed pretty easily by #NotYourShield

I can't see how gamergate is anything good

And you don't appear to be interested in seeing it, either...

and you can't see how my contention that it started wrong and is anti woman is a valid perception.

Because it isn't a valid perception....it's a picture painted on the inside of your eyelids.....a manufactured fantasy, constructed for the people by the MSM, and the Anti-GG machine. "It's easier to fool people, than to convince them they have been fooled"

I'm not sure how to get past either of our views.

Open your eyes....stop staring at the fantasy painted for you by the media....open your eyes, do your homework, and see this thing as it really is, and not as they tell you it is....