Chapel Hill shooting: Craig Stephen Hicks condemned all religions on Facebook prior to 'Muslim mass

a reply to: Grimpachi

Yes he is not exactly a Christian which entails a personal relationship with Christ and God by almost every definition I've ever heard.

He is 100% culturally Christian. Or maybe he is one of those Unitarian sorts who claim Christian atheism or Christian agnosticism - i.e. they like the philosophy but eschew any divinity.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: ketsuko

The difference is that I may not agree with you and you with me and maybe we both think the other is wrong but for you it's about "your immortal soul" and "divine authority" and so on. For me it's about a difference between you and I. I don't fear that if I'm wrong I'm then punished forever for a simple mistake based on my misunderstanding or bad logic. I understand being wrong or making a bad choice has consequences sure, but to believe that my "immortal soul" is being weighed on whether or not I allow gays to marry or didn't pray this week or had some dirty thoughts is just insane IMO and going way too far in allowing my ego to assume importance over things.

And this is why your group and mine can't simply agree to disagree.

For you we are not simply having a disagreement. You view us as insane and mentally unsound. When you hold that belief, there can actually never be any kind of rational dialogue between us because you have already dismissed us from the outset.

a reply to: mOjOm

LOL I know you did not mean it as an insult in truth, I was just ribbing ya.
I too have had similar experiences with Churchy stuff when I was younger, and still do in alot of cases.
However now I just dont attend Church services anyplace.

To be honest and not to cut off my Christian nose to spite my face, I have not found a congregation yet that is more concerned with feeding the hungry than they are with a monthly luncheon in the auxiliary room.

I could tell you some tales about the food pantry My Parents and my wife and I ran, and how much crap we got from members of the Church that we ran it from. Not at the bottom of that list would be the time they wanted us to move all the food from one building to another so the womens group could decorate for a Christmas meal for the Church Memebership LOL (We are talking about over 200 families worth of food here.)
Naturally that caused some issues with Me my wife and my parents as well as our volunteers as our argument was feeding these people was more important than a Church dinner for the holiday.
UGH. Nevermind I ma ranting and it is starting to piss me off LOL

a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

I guess. I honestly don't get it and maybe never will. But I'm thinking about it.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well, I did say you can interpret that any way you want to so I can't fault you. I sort of asked for it.

a reply to: ketsuko

Let's get something clear. I don't have a group. I speak for me only. I represent myself alone and while some people may share similar opinions I highly doubt they would all be equal given the chance to compare them.

Also, I most certainly can agree to disagree. I've done that repeatedly already. We disagree, I'm sure you'll agree. LOL

But I don't consider you as a group either and don't believe that there are as many members in your group that you think they are when it comes to you're "immortal soul" theory. I think many other members of your group probably don't consider themselves to be so important as you do and I'm sure they're reasonable enough to know that their "immortal soul" isn't being weighed by each and every choice they make in life as that would be extremely self righteous. But that's just me...

The reason we might have trouble getting along isn't because I think you're insane. I think most people including myself are insane and get along with them just fine. We can't get along because you seem to be totally inflexible when it comes to certain concepts. This is very critical because concepts are just ideas and to be so rigid of mental abstractions of thought to the point of causing harm to real people I think is very unbecoming. You're letting ideas, theory and concepts hurt actual living people and you allow no room at all to correct for it. That is narcissistic and cruel IMO and I don't know of any spiritual lesson that would promote such actions.

From American Atheist:

American Atheists Statement About Chapel Hill Murders Posted on: February 11, 2015 Cranford, NJ

The staff of American Atheists is saddened by the deaths of Yusor Mohammad, Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, and Deah Barakat, who were killed on Tuesday, in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. We mourn with their families, their friends, and with everyone touched by this tragedy. “American Atheists condemns violence in any form, including violence against people of faith,” said American Atheists President David Silverman. “No person should be a victim of violence because of their religion. Anyone who would attack a person because of their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, attacks the very foundation of freedom. We must work to understand one another as people and recognize that our differences are an important part of our shared humanity.”

news.atheists.org...

a reply to: mOjOm

I think what he is trying to say is that if you believe that your immortal soul is at risk then of course you would not compromise on certain ideas. In the Case of Christians, that Christ is God and that faith in him and his Crucifixion is the way to Salvation.
That being said and I think we can all agree on this, that one can disagree without being disagreeable in action and wording.
Like I can say, I vote libertarian to a Democrat and not actively try to hurt their feelings for having views that do not match my own.
It does not mean I think they are right, it just means I don't want to alienate them as people. However that being said whenever the topic comes up they should not be surprised when I take a different stance than they.

I think a big part of the problem is that the ATS community is really kind of bad for starting flame/click bait threads, with no real intent to understand the reasons for peoples views, but rather are made to incite argument, in attempt to belittle those who have different views religiously, or politically.
Calling people who are politically right wing "Teabaggers" and left leaning people "Liberal Wing Nuts" does not make for a real constructive method of understanding. The same can be said for the vast majority of the threads about religion, and the top foolery that goes on there.
It is way to easy for people to sit behind a computer screen and hurl insults at people knowing that there are no repercussions for it at all. Not repercussions in the sense of legal action but rather in the social contract sense, where people behave as adults because its the right thing to do. Instead they can just slink away and wait for their biased, hate-filled comments roll of the front page and pretend they did not behave like a 5 year old.

Eh rant off.

a reply to: mOjOm

So now I wonder if you've ever been a parent?

Do you allow as you say "ideas, theory and concepts" of what constitutes proper behavior in say a parking lot to hurt your small child?

And you cannot understand that there are some things that are not to be compromised. There are 10 basic Laws and things that Christ taught. If those things are hurtful to others, then perhaps they should re-examine their own perspective and find a new path to follow in life. Not everything is for everyone, but demanding that someone change to follow your perceived morality is definitely the crux of this issue.

You want people to live and let live, and here you admit you don't want that. You don't like how some of us believe, so you would have us bend to your morality because that is perceived to be "less hurtful" to you and makes you happier in your life because now no one thinks differently from you in ways that make you uncomfortable.

I believe I wrote a post about this. It bothers me not at all that my belief upsets you. I'm not requiring you to follow it.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

"What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly."

originally posted by: ketsuko

So now I wonder if you've ever been a parent?

Do you allow as you say "ideas, theory and concepts" of what constitutes proper behavior in say a parking lot to hurt your small child?

And you cannot understand that there are some things that are not to be compromised. There are 10 basic Laws and things that Christ taught. If those things are hurtful to others, then perhaps they should re-examine their own perspective and find a new path to follow in life. Not everything is for everyone, but demanding that someone change to follow your perceived morality is definitely the crux of this issue.

First let's get back to what our conversation was about which is the three abrahamic religions. We've got off track and are making this personal.

Why is it that when it comes to these alleged laws it's "them" that need to re-examine their perspective and not you???
Also, I'm not demanding you change your morality and follow mine. I'm saying you're inability to show any flexibility to what others believe, even those of a religion which has the same origin, is why you're all staying in conflict with each other with no end to it. All three abrahamic religions insist they are the only true faith and that all else are wrong. I'm not the one saying that in reverse. I'm willing to accept the possibility that my values are incorrect or that there is no absolute set of rules in the first place.

You want people to live and let live, and here you admit you don't want that. You don't like how some of us believe, so you would have us bend to your morality because that is perceived to be "less hurtful" to you and makes you happier in your life because now no one thinks differently from you in ways that make you uncomfortable.

I believe I wrote a post about this. It bothers me not at all that my belief upsets you. I'm not requiring you to follow it.

No, again I'm not saying to bend to what I want. We were talking about how those 3 religions have so many others disliking them and I'm trying to explain why that may be. You are making my example even more clear in fact. You seem very intent on sticking to your guns and refusing to find common ground, true to what I expected. The other 2 abrahamic religions also have a tendency to do the same. Refuse that anyone else but themselves could be right. So fine, be that way but expect no change to happen and just accept that you will always be at odds with others. But don't push the blame on them and say they are the ones who are intolerant and not yourselves because it is you who chooses to put your "beliefs" above all else even though your concepts cannot be proven any more "True" than anyone else.

I just realized how far off topic ketsuko and myself have gone with our little sub conversation here and want to apologize. I will punish myself somehow at some time in the future.

I hope this doesn't derail this thread as this is actually an interesting story and I would like to see how it pans out if and when more info comes out.

After watching an interview with his wife, I blame her. She knew he was violent and nuts, with a gun.

originally posted by: MOMof3
After watching an interview with his wife, I blame her. She knew he was violent and nuts, with a gun.

And you would have her do what?

This is what I have gotten from the non stop news coverage so far.
This guy was obsessed with his parking issues. When the neighbors (the Muslim couple who was just married 6 months ago) had friends stop by (like her sister that day), this guy would sometimes strap on his gun and go over to their apartment to bitch about his parking spot. The father mentioned that they (they being the girls) had mentioned their neighbor being a problem and always having a gun at his side.

During the press conference, the police brought up mental illness. The press wanted him to expound on that, and he refrained, but did say that sane people don't gun down three people over a parking spot.

This guy was an atheist who felt it was his duty to harass religions. So more of a militant atheist.

Now, all of that has come out in the news at various times. The three that were killed were apparently super kids. Loving, caring, and giving. Not one bad thing to say from anyone involved.

So what I can get from all this is, this guy was nuts, had a CCW, was angry a lot of the time, and didn't like religion. While I seriously doubt this was an attack against Islam, I do think the fact that you could tell they were devout in their beliefs did have something to do with this as well as the agitation about his parking space. Bottom line, this guy was mentally unstable and had a weapon. A bad combination.

I hope the investigation shows those same facts. This has affected the community in that area greatly and I think it's great to see the solidarity everyone is showing. Terrible that it takes the death of three innocent kids to let people act like humans should, and it may not last long, but like after 911, they stand together.

a reply to: Annee

Leave him and tell everyone why. I have a mentally ill brother. The family knows from early on that something is wrong. They don't act out of shame. Well, get over it.

a reply to: mOjOm
Priceless post, 'trolls calling you a fag'...

I love the cynicism, too bad you're right though. The world is a cesspool. I still find peace though, inscreasingly so, there's too many wonders to behold, if I wasn't already severely desensitized to the horribleness of the world both subjectively and objectively I'd let it get to me, and it did for years.. now, I'm the Teflon Don, just slides right off me.

If I wasn't grounded spiritually I wouldn't be able to handle it, it's not a crutch though as many would like to believe, because facing uncomfortable spiritual realities can get way worse than mundane misery. And spiritual evil makes worldy evil seem trivial and childish.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Annee

Leave him and tell everyone why. I have a mentally ill brother. The family knows from early on that something is wrong. They don't act out of shame. Well, get over it.

Tell who? Had he done anything illegal prior?

The neighbor said he had come to their door prior and threatened them. Did they report it?

I had a mentally ill aunt. You can't do anything until they do something.

And the wife is divorcing him.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

I'm with Terrence McKenna when it comes to mental illness but I'm not really in the mood for touching on that right now, I would have to collect my thoughts.

Then there's semantics and definitions. Sure I could agree with that assessment of insanity, one could argue probably very successfully too, that something has gone haywire if one murders another person, but there's always some reason one can point to, probably several. Coincidentally I am just now reading a book that touches on this, the protagonist does murder someone, but he does it out of love for a woman.

Is love insanity in this situation? Does it drive him to insanity? Permanent or fleeting insanity?
What is insanity anyway?

What about a momentary lapse of reason?

I would argue that society itself is insane, one only needs to look at the post of mOjOm to affirm that fact.
I would argue that most of humanity is afflicted with a severe shared psychosis. The lack of reason of people in groups, the conformity, the apathy - that vicarious tacit approval of all of our degenerate behaviour.
We are nothing but children, and severely deluded children at that.

“The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness. These millions of abnormally normal people, living without fuss in a society to which, if they were fully human beings, they ought not to be adjusted.”

― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited

a funny quote I remembered:

"When a person is insane...as you clearly are...do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading Guns & Ammo, mas@#$ting in your own feces...do you just stop and go: "Wow, it is amazing how f@#$% crazy I really am?"

An interesting thought:

"There is an area of the mind which could be called unsane beyond sanity and yet not insane." - Sidney Cohen

a reply to: Annee

She could have hid the guns. Better he turns violent against his own than another's. Doing nothing is just denial. We do not allow brother to have weapons and his wife assists us with that. At least, we can say we tried. And the police know about him because he has a record of previous violence. If we have to take him down ourselves, there is at least a paper trail of his history.

Of course she is divorcing him.