Jesus so called "sacrifice" on the cross

originally posted by: ItCameFromOuterSpace
a reply to: rokkuman
None of it makes any sense because it's a story written by ancient sand people.

Like this cute little fella?

Well the point is kind of moot since Jesus is a fictional character to begin with.

The all powerful god didn't have to do a lot of stuff like cause the flood which destroyed plants and innocent animals. He could have wiped out the bad men. He didn't have to have animals sacrificed to cover sins which would create the need for Jesus to sacrifice himself so we wouldn't have to sacrifice animals anyway more as in take place of the mosaic law. All that drama for what and nothing for 2000years and how many more years before he destroys us again. Which he vowed never to do again because he felt bad in his heart that he created a rainbow to remind us of his promise.

originally posted by: [post=18970875]PsychoEmperor[/post

I'm genuinely curious. Is your perspective that Jesus existed, was the Son of God, everything in the bible was correct but "wow what a jerk, he didn't' really die"

Well, there is a difference between a deity's avatar, who knows 100% in the same way we know gravity will exist a minute from now, that there is a afterlife,
and a human who at the very best can simply hope of such a thing (regardless of what people say, all it is is a hope).

no gamble whatsoever with a deity (or avatar)..none. So, the question is valid.
Not sure where the whole jerk thing comes from. nobody suggested that I don't think, but yeah, gonna go with if the stories are true of JC and his nature, then it was more for personal growth than some sacrifice, and maybe with a deity experiencing our perspective, he sort of realized how his OT self was being a bit out there in regards to salvation...put the bar down significantly to ultimately just try not to be a jerk

I miss attributed it to Plato but it was Socrates that has been quoted to say, “It may be that God can forgive sins but I do not see how.” a reply to: windword

If Jesus came to see what the human experience was about then he utterly failed. How can you know what it's like to be human if you never sin? Isn't sin an unavoidable part of the human condition according to Christian doctrine? If so, how could Jesus have known what it was truly like to be human? He was sinless right?

Sounds to me like he was put to death, not sacrificed. It doesn't really matter anyway. According to the writings he was apparently a really nice guy who could heal people and possessed some wisdom. I bet he would be here on ATS if he was around today.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If Jesus came to see what the human experience was about then he utterly failed. How can you know what it's like to be human if you never sin? Isn't sin an unavoidable part of the human condition according to Christian doctrine? If so, how could Jesus have known what it was truly like to be human? He was sinless right?

He really didn't committed a sin? That we don't know. He begins His teachings at age 30 (according to scholars). What happen before reaching this age?
We really don't know either. But makes you think.

** What about when He enter the temple and started to throw away tables and hit everybody full of rage.

originally posted by: rokkuman
So I keep hearing the canard that Jesus "sacrificed" his life on the cross, or that he "died" for peoples sins....

So my question is what kind of a sacrifice is it when the "sacrifice" comes back to life?

That never made sense to me either and it still doesn't, except to the extent that no one had the right to kill Jesus so it was, therefore, a sin. But it wasn't my sin since I wasn't there, much less part of it, and it does not in any way excuse my sins today.

What I understand now though is that the message and ministry of Jesus was grossly corrupted by Saul of Tarsus (the one who actually taught that Jesus died for our sins), and those corruptions have been passed down through the generations, now being accepted as "gospel truth."

After taking Saul and his nonsense out of the equation, we're still left with the question of what purpose Jesus' crucifixion served in the context of his life and ministry. I would say because Jesus came to teach us not just how to live but how to die as well, which (as I posted on another thread earlier funny enough) can be summed up thusly: "For what have you gained if you save your life but lose your soul?" The purpose of His return would be to prove that "life" does not end at "death," so we need to mind our Ps and Qs from our first day to our last.

But that still leaves so very much to ponder, and I'm still learning and trying to understand the bigger picture myself, so that's all I've got!

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

Strange everybody else tells me that Jesus dying on the cross is kind of a big deal and a major part of how christians get "saved" by believing in jesus sacrifice/death on the cross etc. Here you are telling me that the " sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross".

Dying in the cross was part of the plan. But not the main plan.
The whole plan was about knowing the human condition. Been able to understand humanity in order for God to judge accordingly.
He had to die (no matter how) because as a human He cannot face God.

Sacrifice is about you giving away something you love. God gave away His divine son to be born as a human. That's sacrifice. To stand between a bullet and somebody else is heroism.

a reply to: Abednego

Yeah, Christianity bases its doctrine on incomplete information. There's no telling how many sins Jesus committed before the story picks up.

Isn't baptism symbolic of washing away previous sins? Maybe Jesus was baptized to wash away the sins he committed before roaming the countryside with his apostles.

originally posted by: rokkuman
So I keep hearing the canard that Jesus "sacrificed" his life on the cross, or that he "died" for peoples sins.

Its kinda funny because in the Bible we read that Jesus came back to life a few days after his so called "death" / "sacrifice".
So what kind of a sacrifice is it when you lose something knowing you would get it back shortly?

for example
If you dive in front of a bullet headed towards a loved one and you die instead of your loved one that would truly count as a great sacrifice.
However if you do that knowing fully well you would come back to life, its wouldn't be too logical to say that you "died" to save somebody would it?

The latter is exactly the case of Jesus who "died" and came back to life. If anything at all he was temporarily immobilized (going by what the bible says)

So my question is
what kind of a sacrifice is it when the "sacrifice" comes back to life?

CAN YOU DO IT ?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Abednego
Isn't baptism symbolic of washing away previous sins? Maybe Jesus was baptized to wash away the sins he committed before roaming the countryside with his apostles.

That's a great possibility.

nvm

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: the2ofusr1

So my question is
what kind of a sacrifice is it when the "sacrifice" comes back to life?

Lets see if christians can answer this without walls of scripture and theology which makes sense to nobody else but them.

a reply to: rokkuman So are you looking for a philosophical answer seeing you have taken the theological response away ? Or maybe you would like it explained in a legal way ? ...And seeing you are eliminating scripture as a source to explain it you might suggest the source you would like to use . I only ask because you have to start somewhere .

According to logic 101 are statements like "Jesus was sacrificed" or "Jesus died on the cross" valid considering Jesus came back to life later?

if you crash your minivan into a tree and come home three days later to find a porsche 911 in your driveway, thats not a sacrifice. thats an upgrade. jesus should have thanked the romans. its not every day you get a level up from having your ass handed to you.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Abednego

It sounds to me like Jesus' trip to Earth was more for his own understanding than for our salvation.

it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

So, let's see. God was up in Heaven, stymied by these rebellious and sinful humans' behavior, so he decides he better see what all the fuss is about, and why he can't get them to obey him, and live "good" lives. He arranges for a virgin to give him a human body, lives relatively anonymous for around 30 years, meets up with his bud from Heaven, John the Baptist, goes on a vision quest in the desert, preaches for a little while then gets himself publicly and shamefully executed. Three days later, he rises from the dead, eats a meal and preaches a little bit more, then he floats back up to Heaven in a cloud, in front of few witnesses.

Now that God has experienced what it's like to be human, he can forgive our sins, but our salvation is dependent on whether or not we believe that above story, or some variation thereof, or not.

I guess that's about as good as a theory as any!

I'm wondering why God was a dead-beat Dad and didn't pay child support to Mary or visit, lol. Maybe that's why Jesus dropped out as an adult and wandered around as a hippy.

jk

Here you go again.

First off it was a sacrifice because he knew what they were gonna do to him before they did.

He did not run or fight.

By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.

We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.

When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.

The reason he came back to life is because the spirit of truth and justice dwelled over the event and life was granted back to him because of his deed.

It is the faith he had that led the angels back to him.

a reply to: deadeyedick

So before jesus died, every human that died burned in hell?

If jesus came back to life, where is he now?

a reply to: TzarChasm

more accurately, its not every day you beat the game by...uh...losing it.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: deadeyedick



So before jesus died, every human that died burned in hell?



If jesus came back to life, where is he now?

You lost me.
where did the burning in hell part come from in my post?

Jesus is just chillin.