So who SHOULD deal with daesh/isis/isil?

a reply to: Jonjonj

For once I'm going to post my initial thoughts without reading the whole of the thread.

Ideally the Islamic world should deal with this themselves - but we know they won't.

Only Iran would be prepared to do that and that's largely due to the Shia / Sunni enmity.

If they do attempt to do we honestly think 'the west' would openly offer any sort of support?
How could they support a regime they have spent the last 40 odd years demonising?

That leaves it down to 'the west', or RotW, with token involvement from nations within the Muslim world.

Now to read the whole thread and see if I've made a fool of myself.....again.

Does anyone have a link that can show what type of force ISIS is re man power weaponary etc?.

I feel the west will get on this when ISIS is banging at the door of Iran, at that point all the under hand games can start and the fire can be pocked to start the destabilization of yet another country.

RA

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: slider1982

I am still surprised or maybe not so much that Israel has not copped a load.

RA

That puzzles me! You'd think ISIS would attack Israel on a daily basis, but nothing, yet threats by IS to invade Rome and the Vatican, to behead Obama in the Whitehouse and even raise the IS flag over Downing St, but nothing about Israel!

Makes one wonder if Massod are handlers?

More likely they aren't stupid.

Mossad, if is real were attacked, would take the fight to them, without pause or any semblance of mercy.

Mossad has earned its name, they are the real life equivalent of Jon travolta in the movie swordfish.

Ask Iran and its nuclear scientists.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Jonjonj

For once I'm going to post my initial thoughts without reading the whole of the thread.

Ideally the Islamic world should deal with this themselves - but we know they won't.

Only Iran would be prepared to do that and that's largely due to the Shia / Sunni enmity.

If they do attempt to do we honestly think 'the west' would openly offer any sort of support?
How could they support a regime they have spent the last 40 odd years demonising?

That leaves it down to 'the west', or RotW, with token involvement from nations within the Muslim world.

Now to read the whole thread and see if I've made a fool of myself.....again.

Many times have I made a fool of msyself, in this instance you did no such thing in my opinion.

originally posted by: sirlancelot
I think a majority of muslims either openly or secretly support what ISIS is doing! Though a majority may not be taking part in the acts of barbarism I dare say the other are complicate in their lack of ridicule or denouncement of ISIS's stategies!

And what is your specialty in social or cultural studies that would support this theory?? I dont see Christians or Catholics doing mass demonstrations when priests are accused of raping young boys. Sure maybe they are like you and go online to voice their disapproval. Your logic to me would dictate that most Christians and Catholics either openly or secretly support the raping of young boys by Catholic priests.

You do not have daily and regular access to the local news stations or websites in Turkey, Qatar, Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Egypt, Kuwait, Oman, or Yemen or any other Muslim nation, so how can you say with any certainty your opinions is based on any facts?? 1 billion Muslims are not going to go on CNN or ATS just to prove to fake Christians they do not support regular barbarism against innocent people. In fact it simply goes without saying.

And yet we have plenty of people here on ATS advocating just the opposite, the nuclear holocaust and murder of hundreds of millions of Muslims based solely on the actions of a few.

I have a great Muslim friends. Two of them are Abdul and ALi. One is Moroccan and the other Iraqi, only living here less than two years. He was a refugee in Dubai since 04' up until that point. Neither of them would ever approve of the actions of Daesh. And yet, there is no need for them to go all flashy and grab ten million people in a march to condemn the obvious.

Only a hypocrite and a bigot of their own faith would judge 600 million+ individuals as being bloodthirsty supporters of men who commit crimes against humanity.

To put it simply, there does not need to be any extra effort on the part of hundreds of millions of individuals to prove to you that they do not support cannibals, child murderers and torturers trained and funded by those you pay taxes to.

originally posted by: infinityorder

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: slider1982

I am still surprised or maybe not so much that Israel has not copped a load.

RA

That puzzles me! You'd think ISIS would attack Israel on a daily basis, but nothing, yet threats by IS to invade Rome and the Vatican, to behead Obama in the Whitehouse and even raise the IS flag over Downing St, but nothing about Israel!

Makes one wonder if Massod are handlers?

More likely they aren't stupid.

Mossad, if is real were attacked, would take the fight to them, without pause or any semblance of mercy.

Mossad has earned its name, they are the real life equivalent of Jon travolta in the movie swordfish.

Ask Iran and its nuclear scientists.

My gut feeling is that Israel will come out of this unscathed as fire rains down around them, and if there was a attack on Israel and lets be honest it is the only real western interest in the region then I would watch for the response very closely as it would give us some idea of what is really happeneing in the region. I have a feeling nothing will happen what so ever..

RE what is being done to stop ISIS there are pockets around the world where its a on going weekly battle take the southern region of the Philippines for proof of this..

www.ibtimes.co.in...

a reply to: slider1982


Thank you for your replies, you are in fact one of the few to actually answer the original premise.

originally posted by: DYepes

originally posted by: sirlancelot
I think a majority of muslims either openly or secretly support what ISIS is doing! Though a majority may not be taking part in the acts of barbarism I dare say the other are complicate in their lack of ridicule or denouncement of ISIS's stategies!

And what is your specialty in social or cultural studies that would support this theory?? I dont see Christians or Catholics doing mass demonstrations when priests are accused of raping young boys. Sure maybe they are like you and go online to voice their disapproval. Your logic to me would dictate that most Christians and Catholics either openly or secretly support the raping of young boys by Catholic priests.

You do not have daily and regular access to the local news stations or websites in Turkey, Qatar, Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Egypt, Kuwait, Oman, or Yemen or any other Muslim nation, so how can you say with any certainty your opinions is based on any facts?? 1 billion Muslims are not going to go on CNN or ATS just to prove to fake Christians they do not support regular barbarism against innocent people. In fact it simply goes without saying.

And yet we have plenty of people here on ATS advocating just the opposite, the nuclear holocaust and murder of hundreds of millions of Muslims based solely on the actions of a few.

I have a great Muslim friends. Two of them are Abdul and ALi. One is Moroccan and the other Iraqi, only living here less than two years. He was a refugee in Dubai since 04' up until that point. Neither of them would ever approve of the actions of Daesh. And yet, there is no need for them to go all flashy and grab ten million people in a march to condemn the obvious.

Only a hypocrite and a bigot of their own faith would judge 600 million+ individuals as being bloodthirsty supporters of men who commit crimes against humanity.

To put it simply, there does not need to be any extra effort on the part of hundreds of millions of individuals to prove to you that they do not support cannibals, child murderers and torturers trained and funded by those you pay taxes to.

As I stated in a previous post I live in a Muslim biased area and it was one of the location where groups where setting up these so called Muslim patrols, basically groups where going round intimidating people on the street regardless of there heritage or faith if they where doing anything that went against Islam, holding hands kissing in public etc etc. It is my understanding that very little was done at a grass routes level of the community to stop this happening, I ask myself why is this??..

en.wikipedia.org...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

originally posted by: slider1982

originally posted by: infinityorder

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: slider1982

I am still surprised or maybe not so much that Israel has not copped a load.

RA

That puzzles me! You'd think ISIS would attack Israel on a daily basis, but nothing, yet threats by IS to invade Rome and the Vatican, to behead Obama in the Whitehouse and even raise the IS flag over Downing St, but nothing about Israel!

Makes one wonder if Massod are handlers?

More likely they aren't stupid.

Mossad, if is real were attacked, would take the fight to them, without pause or any semblance of mercy.

Mossad has earned its name, they are the real life equivalent of Jon travolta in the movie swordfish.

Ask Iran and its nuclear scientists.

My gut feeling is that Israel will come out of this unscathed as fire rains down around them, and if there was a attack on Israel and lets be honest it is the only real western interest in the region then I would watch for the response very closely as it would give us some idea of what is really happeneing in the region. I have a feeling nothing will happen what so ever..

RE what is being done to stop ISIS there are pockets around the world where its a on going weekly battle take the southern region of the Philippines for proof of this..

www.ibtimes.co.in...

It seems to me that considering the US toppled sadaam to appease saudie fears, while underming Assad and funding an anti seria militant group.....

Isreal probably place little to no part here.

It seems more likely this is the result of providing weapons and funding in a power vacuum to those with dreams of greatness.

Give a tin pot tyrant the means, and he will take all he grab.

We provided the means and the environment for Isis to do what they have done.

ISIS is a product of islam, it`s their baby, therefore they should take care of the problem called isis.
if they refuse do anything then let them live and die at the hands of their demented child.

we had some demented Christian folks here in America once at a place called Waco. That was another case of religious folks taking their religion to extremes.since the other Christian folks wouldn`t deal with the problem child that their religion spawned the government had to step in with a heavy hand and put an end to it.

Whether it`s islam or Christianity or any other religion that breeds these wackos, they need to take responsibility for it and deal with the nutjobs that their religion created.If the government has to step in to clean up the mess that religions create then nobody should complain about how they take care of the problem.

problem groups like isis need to be dealt with swiftly and decisively, the world has wasted too much money and time dealing with wacko groups,time and money that would have been better spent progressing the human race.groups like isis affect everyone in the world by retarding human progress.
Groups like this need to be dealt with, with an iron fist and extreme measures to end their theft of human progress as quickly as possible and to deter anyone else from even thinking about holding human progress hostage again.

originally posted by: Tardacus
ISIS is a product of islam, it`s their baby, therefore they should take care of the problem called isis.
if they refuse do anything then let them live and die at the hands of their demented child.

we had some demented Christian folks here in America once at a place called Waco. That was another case of religious folks taking their religion to extremes.since the other Christian folks wouldn`t deal with the problem child that their religion spawned the government had to step in with a heavy hand and put an end to it.

Whether it`s islam or Christianity or any other religion that breeds these wackos, they need to take responsibility for it and deal with the nutjobs that their religion created.If the government has to step in to clean up the mess that religions create then nobody should complain about how they take care of the problem.

problem groups like isis need to be dealt with swiftly and decisively, the world has wasted too much money and time dealing with wacko groups,time and money that would have been better spent progressing the human race.groups like isis affect everyone in the world by retarding human progress.
Groups like this need to be dealt with, with an iron fist and extreme measures to end their theft of human progress as quickly as possible and to deter anyone else from even thinking about holding human progress hostage again.

Wait...did you just say the ends justify the means?

Has never worked out well under this type of thinking BTW....not once!!!!

a reply to: flammadraco

IS is the baby-child of Saudi Arabia. So what is Saudi Arabia's end game?

Establishment of Saudi (Wahhabist Sunni) hegemony in the middle east.

Now the thing is, Israel does not challenge this. Israel is bat-nuts over Iran (Shia), Syria (Shia-Alawite), and Hezbollah (Shia). Hamas is aligning itself with hezbollah / Iran, which takes it out of the Saudisphere. So in all of this, basically Saudi Arabia and Israel are unspoken allies, connected politically by the United States (and funny how much Us materiel seems to wind up in the hands of IS militants, huh?)

IS will not antagonize Israel because Saudi Arabia sees it as more beneficial to align with Israel - they're a lucrative trade partner and a potent military power (eleventh-strongest globally, most powerful regionally) I imagine the end game is to muscle in a bunch of Saudi-freindly lunkhead regimes, then have them "make peace with Israel," brokered of course by Saudi Arabia, with a high profit margin, political and material rewards from the US and Israel.

I think it's important to recognize that such an apparently vile sect would not survive in this world without some sort of support. Syria and Iraq are not without some means of military power. There's a reason we're seeing the ISIS thing on MSM, but I suspect it's a deeper rabbit hole than most are aware of.

a reply to: flammadraco

That puzzles me! You'd think ISIS would attack Israel on a daily basis, but nothing, yet threats by IS to invade Rome and the Vatican, to behead Obama in the Whitehouse and even raise the IS flag over Downing St, but nothing about Israel!

Isis may be a lot of things but i suspect being dumb is not one of them . To attack Israel would bring about their swift demise , it would be their turn to see their own death coming over the horizon . Israel has a propensity to not worry about collateral damage when dealing with enemies of the state . Al baghdadi is not stupid , attack Israel and they will get their own version of being burned alive . Theres your answer .

oh please. When it comes to ground fighting Israel hardly ever shines like a superstar. They just bomb innocent civilians from the air. When there is mostly rubble and gibs left over then they send in the ground forces (Gaza or Hezbollah). Of course they could just napalm everything and everyone, but then again so could many of the G20 countries.

IMO, without air superiority, Israel would suffer heavy against Daesh. Now their special forces are badass, but like ALL special forces the world over, they do best on missions of discretion. When it comes to an open battle where they are supported by regular infantry, and/or lacked air support, everyone's' special forces pretty much is on equal footing. Men shooting at men, may the one with the best accuracy and most ammo win.

Daesh does not attack Israel because it is a creation of the Pentagon, funded by fanatics from our allied fascist states on the Saudi Peninsula. Israel will never have to worry about ISIS attacking them not because ISIS is afraid, but because many of their orders are originating from Langley, Tel Aviv, and London. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them?

The problem with this issue is that it is complex.

That’s one reason Obama won’t deal with it.

He’s a simple minded man like Bush

Here are the complexities:

One: You have an existing civil war in Syria instigated by the Western intelligence and military agencies in Syria. So the US has a geopolitical stake in the region that transcends the Isil problem.

In this scenario they actually are using Isil as a bludgeon against Syria

An addendum to that is they are already surreptitiously involved with issues in secret deals with people in the region that includes the Isil group and the other Jihadi groups at war with Syria.


Two: You have issues in Iraq surrounding the Sunni/Shia division and conflicts that step over into the Isil issue and exacerbate the problem: potentially creating a Sunni/ Shia civil war that will intensify the Isil issue as well solidify the civil strife in Iraq and Iran surrounding the Sunni/Shia conflict.

What this all means is that the Muslim nations have pre-existing problems and issues that don’t make the simple premise of “getting the Muslims to stop Isil” a simple process.

And then there’s Turkey that all of a sudden because of the election of a quasi Islamist has muddied the issues' even more so in this NATO ally being obstinate and in-fact aiding Isil indirectly and maybe likely directly. Also they have like the Arab Gulf States and Jordan an intense involvement with overthrowing Assad in Syria.

Bottom lime these hard headed leaders from their perspective don’t view Isil as we view them.

Obama doesn’t have a clue on how to wade through this mess.

He can’t put together a coalition easily that will really work and have a real affect because these countries heart isn’t in it.

Particularly Turkey.

That’s the good side of the problem

The bad side of the problem is that US/NATO and these Muslim allies are playing a game of chicken and actually are aiding Isil in order to ultimately destroy Assad of Syria

In other words were being conned

This plot is to really just send a great part of this side of the Arab world into hell as they did in Libya and tried to do in Egypt. Destabilize and make them failed states and deal with the vacuum being filled by crazy jihadist later as they did in Libya...

Why?

Some say all to fight Iran.

Some say to create a viable partner in the war of civilization.


Isil will self destruct one way or another when they are through with it.

Maybe they are through

But the question arises: how many people, innocent people, will have to be sacrificed for this cruel and wicked game...

A game of murder.

If everything was on the up and up

The program to rid Isil of the world would be very simple.

The US/NATO/UN Arab states and Turkey would form a coalition of 100, 000 crack troops from all of the above mentioned groups and go in with full army and navy and arial warfare and in no less than a month

ISIL WOULD BE DESTROYED!

But that ain't gonna happen because everything is not on the up and up

originally posted by: slider1982

As I stated in a previous post I live in a Muslim biased area and it was one of the location where groups where setting up these so called Muslim patrols, basically groups where going round intimidating people on the street regardless of there heritage or faith if they where doing anything that went against Islam, holding hands kissing in public etc etc. It is my understanding that very little was done at a grass routes level of the community to stop this happening, I ask myself why is this??..

en.wikipedia.org...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

I think the question you should be asking yourself is what did you do to curb this criminal activity? Thats what it is, criminal activity by a few people. There are many Latino street gangs in the states whos religion revolves around worshiping death angels and so on. Well in the states, when thugs harass or attack law abiding citizens, they get dead by our second amendment. If you do not like what they are doing, get your buddies together and make your presence visible in front of those same groups and defend yourselves accordingly to what your municipal, state, or kingdom's laws allows. Perhaps if the citizens did not allow themselves to be castrated in the nineties you would not be having this problem.

People tend to behave a little better when an act of bullying gets them dead in two seconds or less from a bullet by armed dutiful citizen.

But in the meantime, cowering into a fetal position and begging the state for help will not stop those thugs from bullying yall around. Bust one over the head with a bat and stomp the crap out of him on the ground with your buddies the next time they come at you. Then maybe your local leaders can address the legal issues of the criminals bullying harassing attitude. Lumping innocent families that just want to move on with their day though with those same criminals and then crying to the state will not fix the problem.

meet force with force within the parameters of the laws on self defense.

That`s not at all what I`m saying, what i`m saying is that extreme threats always require extreme solutions,they always have and they always will.
Typically the solutions start at a more moderate level and then escalate to meet the level of the threat,but that takes time and a lot of money and retards our progression as a species.
WW2 for example, the solution escalated to carpet bombing cities and finally nuclear weapons.

The survival and progression of mankind justifies the means.




a reply to: infinityorder

a reply to: hutch622

I think you sorely overestimate Israel's ability. it might have the raw power (thirty years of free handouts from the US military can have that effect) but it's not really matched by the military's abilities. it's sort of like how Saudi Arabia has the region's most powerful air force... but doesn't actually have enough pilots to fly the damned planes.

In 2006, Israel was fought to a standstill by Hezbollah. In all the time it's been flattening Gaza since 2006, it has not made any significant impact on Hamas. These are third-rate groups in the scale of military conflicts - basically they're the Crips of the middle east, something to solve with cops, not bombs. But Israel, as you note, flips its lid and bombs like crazy... Because Israel's military isn't particular competent. They train by beating up people's grandmothers. They're coasting on fumes from a few old victories, earned by sneak attacks (Israel's two invasions of Egypt and Lebanon), incompetence in the Arab league (1948) and foreign intervention on Israel's behalf (1948, 1973).

If Israel and IS got into a fight (again, unlikely due to Saudi interests), then it would be a much tougher fight than you anticipate, and the only losers would be the people of Syria, since it's pretty clear neither Israel or IS has any compunctions about slaughtering them all just to score kill counts.

a reply to: TheTengriist

If you read between the lines i am hinting at Israel levelling everything . Then and only then the would make it a ground war .