Christianities Strange Alliance

So moslems reject Jesus' divinity but agree he some how vanished and is going to return as messiah, but there's no divinity behind it at all? Last I checked only magicians can disappear and come back. Least jews have a legitimate reason not to accept him and not just because the koran says so

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Specimen

I agree the histories of religions are important, but I am trying to figure out how the current paradigm has come about with relations between these religions. I think understanding this is pretty important considering the level of hostility it causes.

Most Muslims and Christians and Jews are not running around blasting each other to smithereens. Most don't care much about the differences. Mostly a matter of study for those who do care.

A close look at some of the very hostile Islamic groups shows they don't really care much for some Muslims anyway. There is a good place to start your search and study. There is not homogenous Islam. Only some sects really venerate Jesus anyway. Isis hates just about everybody, are racists, sectarian, cultish, apocalyptic, ect kill Jews, Christians, Kurds, other Muslims and...... Japanese ect.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Does that work both ways?

You have me at a disadvantage if you haven't noticed Charlie.
You relate to both, being two ways but, I know only of mine and
nothing of the second.

Are you a muslim Charlie?

A dumb question now that I've had a closer look at your avatar.

OOPS !

Damn douple uppers!

a reply to: Grimpachi

There is also the origination to consider.

Modern Arabs are theoretically descended from Abraham's son by the Egyptian servant Hagar - Ishmael. Abraham always asked for God to bless him and God always promised to make Ishmael into a great nation. It seems that Ishmael's descendants have done so. However, God also promised to make His covenant with Sarah's son, Isaac, and this is where the Jew's are supposed to descend from.

So, if Ishmael's descendants are the desert Arabs, then you could look on this situation between Jews and Muslims as a continuation of an ancient family feud. Who really should have had the birthright to the Covenant with God? In a sense, you could look at the Muslim claim that Mohammad was the final prophet to correct everything as an attempt to claim God's favor and Covenant.

And Christians are just a wayward offshoot of the Jewish tree haring off after a guy the Jews deny was the Son of God and the Muslims refuse to think could be the Son of God.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: Grimpachi

The Christian fundamentalist Religious Right in the U.S. and zionists (whether in the U.S. or in Israel) share a common political agenda.

Correct, I have never voted because Jesus Christ is my one and only KING!



And my soul weeps for his return.

a reply to: randyvs

Yes I'm a Muslim.


The reason I ask if it works both ways, is because you made the claim that Christians & Jews die for their beliefs...
& Muslims kill for theirs...
Not also expressing that Muslims have died for their beliefs, & that Jews & Christians have killed for theirs...


So do you feel you can tread on another's faith like this and they just will lie down?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Grimpachi



So, if Ishmael's descendants are the desert Arabs, then you could look on this situation between Jews and Muslims as a continuation of an ancient family feud. Who really should have had the birthright to the Covenant with God? In a sense, you could look at the Muslim claim that Mohammad was the final prophet to correct everything as an attempt to claim God's favor and Covenant.

Thats a good summation of it. Some of the others around there "Arabs" are of other relationships besides Abraham but yea. We have the decedent's of Lot who was Abrahams brothers son and Esau Jacobs brother and some other related folks.

a reply to: Logarock

Well I think the modern Jordanians are the theoretical descendants of Lot? They had something of a love/hate relationship with the tribes as God used them to both aid and punish the tribes as He needed.

And today, Jordan is something of a frenemy to Israel. So the role carries on to an extent.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So do you feel you can tread on another's faith like this and they just will lie down?

Not no way not no how Charlie. At least we are eye to eye on that.
Respects.

Aside from the comment by Cuervo which I totally agree with isn't it because Christianity "hijacked" Judaism and in turn Islam did the same thing to Christianity? Though in Judaism there was a precedent and an expectation of a Messiah, which to the Christians Jesus fulfilled.

My observations:
- It seems to be a little one-sided. Seems like Christians are more enthusiastic about Jews than vice-versa. (Speaking broadly of course.)
- Now, why would this be? Welp, let's see...the last time Jews persecuted the Christians (to the extent that it got a lot of attention) was, like, 2000 years ago. Muslims have persecuted Christians and Jews up until the present day. Christians persecuted Jews on-and-off up until the end of WW2. (Again, speaking very broadly here.) So I think that helps explain some of the odd triangles of favoritism.
- Religiously speaking, Islam diverges much more from Judaism than Christianity. Christianity basically claims to be "Judaism: the Sequel" while Islam is more like "Judaism: the Remake" because (IIRC, someone please correct me if I am mistaken) Islamic beliefs claim that the Jews misinterpreted/twisted the *true* religion. Christianity doesn't seek to rewrite fundamental Jewish religious history like that, so, from that perspective, it makes sense that there would be more affinity between Christianity and Judaism than between Christianity/Judaism and Islam.

In earlier times the Jews were friendlier with the Muslims.

In fact in Moorish Spain the Jews were treated very well.

There is little history of Muslims persecuting Jews in earlier times.

Then the Christians killed everybody who wasn’t Christian or at least threw you out of the country. They were the ISIS of that age.

In the crusades the Christians slaughtered Jews, Muslims and anything that wasn’t Christian.


Over the centuries the Jews became europeanized and WHITE and most of the Muslims were non Europeans

Then slowly the Christians when they became more secular they identified with secular Western European Jews more than Muslims generally.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Judaism views Jesus as a false Massiah having no claim to the divine and Islam recognizes Jesus as being a Messiah and being divine yet generally speaking Judaism is favored by Christianity over Islam. I am wondering how this alliance came to be.

Guilt for the Holocaust, mainly.

Mediaeval fears of Turkish expansion into Europe accounts for the rest.

originally posted by: Punisher75
a reply to: FyreByrd

The issue I was addressing was the idea that Buddhist act in a way that says persecution is okay and they think it is payment for their bad karma. They obviously do not at least not to a man otherwise they would not go to war on principle, and yet they do.
The reason the article was brought up as it concerns persecution of Christians by Buddhist is to demonstrate that the prevailing idea that Buddhist simply have a live and let live mentality is also false.

I am certain there was whining before the persecution started or do you think the Buddhist involved simply started the persecution out of the blue?
I prefer to think they attempted to make their displeasure known first.

If those were not your arguments then I am not sure I understand what your arguments are, other than to say Christians can be as hypocritical as Buddhist. If that was your argument then I in no way disagree.

By the way the caps yell thing and the three inch fool thing has at least demonstrated to me that you are not terribly rational in this conversation. Maybe you should take a page from my Muslim opponents behavior if you wont take mine?

First of all, I was addressing a specific statement you made. And I will quote it for illumination:

"To be fair I have yet to see any group on this planet who does not have a persecution complex."

My response to this generalization was that I'd yet to hear (or read or see) a buddhist complain about being persecutied.

You then proceeded to argue about Buddhist persecuting others and non-pacific Buddists which were completely meaningless. To responded, I assume, to statements that you made up. Rational - Hardly.


Now, you have made several more statements about a religion you don't know or understand that are completely outside the context of this discussion, hence the "go away" graphic.

YOU may have a prevailing idea that Buddhists just "live and let live" - but it is not the case - Buddhists are like all other people - a varied and error prone bunch.

And regards war and buddhists, this is an area of discussion. One side advocating for pacifism and the other willing to entertain that war, in certain circumstances lessens suffering - and many Buddhists take a vow to continue reincarnating after reaching enlightenment to help others on the path - the Bodhisatvatta Vow. Now not all Buddists follow that 'Great Vehical' school of Buddism.

So just how rational was your statement?

Again, to refresh your memory, you said, ""To be fair I have yet to see any group on this planet who does not have a persecution complex."

And you can back pedal to defend your statement all you like but use examples and citations that have some bearing on my response to the above over-generalization.

Oh, and you idea that Karma is some sort of punishment, is way off as well.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Pharisee? That's a whole other kettle of worms. These are a whole lot of interesting too:

Jesus Christ Was Not Jewish

Christians: More Like Jesus or Pharisees?

originally posted by: Grimpachi

There is something I just can't figure out about the alliances with Abrahamic religions. Judaism views Jesus as a false Massiah having no claim to the divine and Islam recognizes Jesus as being a Messiah and being divine yet generally speaking Judaism is favored by Christianity over Islam. I am wondering how this alliance came to be. Is it finding common ground on something people agree on that is a positive(i.e. Jesus was divine) is less powerful than agreement on a negative(i.e. Mohamad is a false profit)?

Both Judaism and Christianity agree Mohamad to be a false profit.

Both Islam and Christianity agree Jesus was divine.

Judaism rejects both Jesus and Mohamad as divine.

The levels of animosity between these religions are bewildering to me. It isn't that I want the paradigm to shift unless it was for everyone to get along better, to me it seems like relations between Islam and Christianity should be much better than they are because of common ground core beliefs.

awesome question and its very easily explained, but do you want an explanation from the people on ats or do you think it wiser to research yourself.
I cant believe , no sorry yes I can.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

That's a whole other kettle of fish concerning legalism and spirit.

You can't accuse most modern Christians of only sitting in the pews on Sunday and then blowing off the law the rest of week and call them Pharisees. That shoe doesn't quite fit.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Islam recognizes Jesus as being a Messiah and being divine

No, Islam teaches the God had no Sons.

originally posted by: cass1dy09
So moslems reject Jesus' divinity but agree he some how vanished and is going to return as messiah, but there's no divinity behind it at all? Last I checked only magicians can disappear and come back. Least jews have a legitimate reason not to accept him and not just because the koran says so

They teach he will return with the Mahdi. Their 12th Imam, or "Mahdi" is their messiah. Not Jesus.