Season of the Witch

a reply to: crayzeed

Your point about animal instinct is a good one. I am very focused on the subject in general, being into horse and dog training, I feel I learned a lot about human behaviorism from animals.
I recognized the same sorts of patterns social animals do going on everyday, all the time, without anyone being consciously aware they were doing it!
I found becoming aware of it was a matter of introspection- observing, being receptive, without projecting any personal intent. I propose that that state of receptivity is often enhanced by repression. Someone who feels or believes they are powerless loses any hope or expectation of influencing events around them.

In such a state, other observers might call that being mindless, without personality, stupid even. We tend to consider that what differenciates humans and animals is how we express and project our individual thoughts and intents outward verbally. Being receptive is being animal. (take that and you can run through the halls of mythology, archetype, symbology of the female/animal association common to most human cultures).

I am not sure I have had so much more free time at all periods of my life. I did have a period of time which I consider my "time in the desert" or something, in which I couldn't communicate with anyone around me, I could only observe body language to try to figure out what was happening, I was very isolated. I was able to meditate a lot. I realize not everyone has the opportunity to delve into such a state of receptivity/repressed self expression.

Though before that period, and after, it was not the case. Like I said, being a single mother and student, I didn't have much time to think- but I had to remain receptive. When I was a child and had to take care of my younger siblings, feed them, make sure they went to school, that they slept and washed, etc. I had to be constantly aware of others needs and wants, and did not consider my own. I lived for others.

Yes, this brings the animal nature to the forefront, in particular, the maternal instincts.
It is funny how in our american culture, "maternal" is like a bad word. As if it is only useful with babies and small children, who cannot verbalize their needs- once a person can verbalize what they feel and need, it is thought to be destructive. As if suddenly people don't have needs or feelings other than the ones they are aware of and consciously projecting outwards! Or else it is evil to percieve them.

As if a woman can just shut off her maternal instincts and suddenly NOT pick up on those in others around her anymore!

I have some doubts about that. I suspect those receptive maternal animal instincts don't disappear, but if a woman denies them(through belief that they are "bad", that it is "bad" to tend to physical drives and needs that are non-verbalized)
they.... run amok. They run into subversive covert manipulation rather than constructive supportive manipulation.


Women who say they have no time to reflect or think about things very often have amazingly focused memories of past events with a strongly formed emotional attachment and judgement. Who did the thinking and re-hashing of those events to keep it so emotionally charged and full of meaning then???
Someone, for example, spent a lot of time reducing a young mans choices of action to a specific event in which another bought a boat. From one event to the other, it seems a rather complex construction.

Someone chewed that cud. They were probably very busy and without much "free time", but nonetheless, that stew was allowed to simmer and given an abundant amount of attention inside.

I think men and women alike will recognize that feminine trait- bring up that comment that was said five years ago and what it meant and what it led to and how it is relevant to the present. Yeah, we do that. Even when we have been very very busy.
How does any woman, in todays world, (where we are pressured to support families financially, be good employees, good mothers, good community members, and sometimes even good daughters to our aging parents, be eco-supportive, health focused, etc.)
or in the past, when we were rushing to make those candles, milk that cow, boil that soap, skin that rabbit, knit those socks,
How did we also spin interior webs of memory and meaning to such elaborate extent????
During our days off??

This is a good example, dawnstar- you are aware of how events impacted someone internally. You are aware that your son had feelings in response to these events and circumstances, that effected his choices, and the outcome of his destiny. I bet your husband isn't. -Except through hearing it from you, and it probably sounds like absurdity to him. I am sure you are a busy woman, I don"t think you needed to be a lazy princess to perceive those things. Just a woman, receptive to the unspoken needs and feelings of others around you.

And I am not so "free" with my time- I work full time as a cook, have grown children, but also grandchildren, animals, a home.... right now it is three in the morning, and I am very sick, so end up writing because I have pain and difficulty breathing. But tomorrow I won't be able to take a nap and get out of working. Nonetheless, my subconscious will be spinning those webs down there anyway, and I will become aware of them the morning after (and probably post them, LOL).

The gender seperation comes up at a time when the population is booming.

Everyone is looking for their own way of being unique instead of just seeing themselves as a human. They have all these preconcieved notions of how they should think based on how other people should think who learned it from other people that heard someone tell them how they should think and the chain goes on.

People will mutilate their body just to stand out to be different. Because everyone wants to feel needed and appreciated or at least making themselves seperate so that in their mind they think they are RARE and disregard the oppinions of others.

Gender is just one more thing ontop of such preconcieved notions. However, What i stated about a woman being able to ruin a mans life is 100%. And i did ask should this reach across the whole world? Because men are sexually portrayed just as badly as woman are. And many woman go along with it, and so do men. Thinking that well if that's what the media and current society is showing me then it must be the way.

On the other spectrum you have muslims and mormans who do polygamy. With muslims being on the farther extreme side foring dress code and more degrading rules.

Eitherway. Legally in the country where i live. The power that woman have is not non-existant but is omnipresent.
All it takes is the word of a woman to start a thousand dollar investigation on someone with or without relation/contact.

a reply to: Bluesma

First-rate thinking. Impressive psychological observations. Always a pleasure to read you writing, dear Bluesma.

This manipulation of the inner world you speak of. Do women use it on each other to any adverse effect? From a more object-orientated point of view, it appears as if it hinders relations when two inner harpies meet.

a reply to: AnuTyr

I absolutely agree with you.

I can accurately be accused of using too much personal anecdote in my explanations of my ideas. That is because all my ideas come from my experiences- if even experiences of observing what others go through.

My view is that the US holds as it's highest and most influencial value, individualism. Being "different" from "everyone else".
This is one of those values I was so surrounded with I assumed it was a universal human trait, inherent in our make-up.

Then I moved to country in which the highest values are collectivist - it is a capitalistic economy, but the cultural values and attitudes are what we would call "socialist". Here, what everyone wants to do is avoid standing out, avoid being different. That is considered "bad".

Individuals seem to have a draw towards one or the other, no matter what the culturally conditioned values are, but if those go against their values, they manifest in a "negative" form. Here people drawn to leadership positions (drawn to individualism) often end up doing so against their morals, which hold that to step apart from the crowd is to become corrupt ethically- and so, they are. Because their subconscious believes that is an inevitable conclusion.

People who are drawn to being socially minded in an individualist centered value system, will end up being easily influenced by those around them, but in the most negative ways, because their subconscious believes that is the inevitable conclusion of being part of the herd.

Though I think this is relevant to the topic, it is so in such a complex way readers might not see the connection.

But I am aware of the imbalance in the laws, and being true to my character, want to expose another experience of mine to illustrate it.

When I was 20, I had a baby. The father and I broke up before he was born. He proclaimed he still wanted to father the child, despite us not being a couple anymore, so at the hospital, I was asked who the father was- I simply replied and it was written on the birth certificate. In this case, the father knew he was and had no complaint- but I thought, wait- what about women who lie? No one considers that?

Later, being a father to a small baby seemed a bit too complicated or something, the father didn't end up building a relationship with him. I accepted that choice of his and just continued my life. Until he told me there had been a court hearing, and he had been ordered to pay child support! I hadn't known about it, and the payments were going to the state.

I called the DA and said I didn't want this to happen. I was told I had nothing to say about it, it didn't matter what I wanted.

Years later, I remarried, moved to France, and my ex verbally agreed to a adoption by my husband. So we undertook a complicated and expensive legal process to do that, but at the last moment of final signing, he disappeared. We could not do it, and we could not afford a private investigator as the lawyers suggested, nor the lawyers themselves, anymore. We dropped it.

A couple years later, my ex contacts me and tells me they found him another state, and they ordered him to pay years worth of back child support payments (a huge amount), even attaching his salary. Again, I did not see a penny of that, I was never contacted by the state, and I didn't need it anyway.

The system is screwed up, but I do not necessarily believe women are the cause of it. I think women and men are influenced in various ways by it, but ultimately, it seeks to widen the split between the sexes and intensify the gender war- because a people divided are easier to conquer.

If your question is pointed at the idea that, women having a sense of personal power would encourage these sorts of abuses, I disagree. For one, such laws come about through the beliefs that women need support from a man to live. Which is in part true, in that country, because of the rest of the system which rejects collectivism.

In the country I am currently in, most divorces are by mutual consent- meaning that joint custody is assumed by the law- they each have 50-50 (equal time must be spent with each parent). Child support payments are not obligatory and are often not demanded. It is between them.
But IF the couple has disputes over the divorce and request a court hearing, the 50-50 custody is still strived for (not custody by the mother, as in the US!) and child support payments, by law, are demanded of the parent with the higher salary regardless of gender.

For me, I found this interesting- how they can be so much more fair, when the women have much more confidence and sense of power than in the US??

Because a person who has real confidence in their self and their power, doesn't try to take it from others.



To think that the answer to this imbalance we are refering to is to knock them down in confidence more, I think, is a mistake. It simply pushes the women to feed this system more to try to get something they think they are lacking, and it widens the division in the people, which makes us all vulnerable.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

First-rate thinking. Impressive psychological observations. Always a pleasure to read you writing, dear Bluesma.

This manipulation of the inner world you speak of. Do women use it on each other to any adverse effect? From a more object-orientated point of view, it appears as if it hinders relations when two inner harpies meet.

Thank you! Coming from someone whose mind I also appreciate (though we don't always agree) that compliment is meaningful to me.

And yes, you are right. In my case, being such an introspective and solitary type, I didn't get much experience with female interactions of this sort when young. My relations were mostly limited to having one man in my life, and very limited female friends- only ones that, like me, were rather solitary types.

But in the last couple of years, I have tried to integrate groups at work, in which I got to know more women, and the mentality of the youngest ones was what surprised me and probably brought this issue more to the forefront of mind.
I could not understand the lack of explicitness in communications- which already is part of the french culture (the art of subtility is what they call it, I call it being passive aggressive...) but the lengths to which they will go to manipulate covertly is astounding! Girls doing manipulations which use an amazing amount of cunning and intelligence.

For example, a couple of young women, ambitiously set on keeping a sort of higher position of power in the work place, in relation to the other women, would cooperate in doing stuff like telling the woman who stayed late the night before and closed the kitchen that they had forgotten certain things- to turn off the gas, to turn off an oven, to close a window...
(ETA- that is apparently automatically editted out- a bad word? The openings in a building to let in sunlight or air???)

When I witnessed that this was often a lie (as I had been with the accused, and watched them do these things myself) it became apparent this was a manipulation to make the woman feel she was inadequate, making mistakes- to cut down her confidence in herself; to not trust herself.

The manipulation would go as far as to whisper the "mistake" and (with a wink of the eye) say, "don't worry, I didn't tell the boss, it will stay between us." Which of course was necessary to make sure she didn't speak to anyone else and find out she had made no such mistake!

The more mature women, of age, mothers and wives, don't do this crap, (women who have a role of power in their home) and they call it childish stupidity. But I consider it not stupid at all- they have intelligence, they are just abusing it, using it in destructive ways, rather than constructive ways. It is quite effective towards it's goals, in shutting down any confidence or ambition in the other women.

What I perceive here, is that having ambition is considered a sin- it is wanting to rise above the crowd, be different. They do not have the ideas we have, that each individual that rises above pulls up others in that action.

So ambition and will to power is repressed. These two same women proclaim loudly that they do not want to have any position of power, I have seen both of them claim so. They probably believe it. But their actions all tell a different story. This ambition and will to power comes out in these sneaky indirect negative ways. I didn't buy Nietzsche's claims until I witnessed this. Because he was familiar with European Catholic values, and I grew up in Protestant America.

Where subconscious negative forms of will to power emerge here,
I have perceived subconscious negative forms of social belongingness emerge there- in the culture wars, in identifying with activist groups, political groups, extremist religions and ideologies, even gender-based groupings, that are hostile towards non-members.

a reply to: Bluesma

And yes, you are right. In my case, being such an introspective and solitary type, I didn't get much experience with female interactions of this sort when young. My relations were mostly limited to having one man in my life, and very limited female friends- only ones that, like me, were rather solitary types.

But in the last couple of years, I have tried to integrate groups at work, in which I got to know more women, and the mentality of the youngest ones was what surprised me and probably brought this issue more to the forefront of mind.

Sounds positively scientific. So, now, do you think of yourself as a kind of authority on women?

I could not understand the lack of explicitness in communications- which already is part of the french culture (the art of subtility is what they call it, I call it being passive aggressive...) but the lengths to which they will go to manipulate covertly is astounding!

This is something we women do?

:-)

Don't mind me - I love a good witch hunt. Especially when we're in season

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

Sounds positively scientific. So, now, do you think of yourself as a kind of authority on women?

LOL! No- it's called "an opinion". Feel free to share a differing one if you wish, that is all the fun of idea and opinion exchange in a public forum!

I could not understand the lack of explicitness in communications- which already is part of the french culture (the art of subtility is what they call it, I call it being passive aggressive...)

This is something we women do?

It is something I think that many young women do (as was specified, and included that more mature women tend not to do). I was specifically relating what I observed amongst girls in the age group of 18 to 24, of french culture.
I have observed that young women in that age group in America also do this sort of thing, but perhaps in slightly different ways.

-Like offer veiled criticism, so that they cannot be held responsible for it. It seems to me that is exactly what you have done here.

Don't mind me - I love a good witch hunt. Especially when we're in season

I don't "mind", you having a different opinion or perspective- though I would be interested in you sharing it explicitly instead! It might be a valuable source of insight for me, or for others reading! It could be constructive input, which provokes thought and discussion ! Why not share it directly? Why limit your participation to veiled insults ? Does that benefit us in any way?

a reply to: Bluesma

Why not share it directly? Why limit your participation to veiled insults ? Does that benefit us in any way?

It wasn't even a little bit veiled (though I know that is often the perceived way of women - and maybe also your way of seeing women)

It wasn't an insult - though I can see how you might interpret it that way. Definitely, it was meant to provoke

It was, however else you want to look at it - my opinion :-)

Funny - what you did there. Instead of accepting what I said the way I said it - you turned it into something else. Is this also something women do?

:-)

Happy hunting Bluesma

postscript: Not for nothing Bluesma - but I've been reading along. It's been a fun read - even if our opinions are very different

a reply to: Bluesma

A lack of explicitness in communication. I find that very true. The old trope "men don't understand women" is a common theme for a reason. In conversations both talking and listening, I have always wondered if women even understand women, because as you say, the behavior is is often different than the proposition, and from my point of view, women are tough on other women—at least when they are out of earshot of one another.

As a woman, is there an implicit level of communication occurring somewhere? Perhaps the female gender has acquired a keener sense for body language, being that on average, women are more empathetic. Newborns with less testosterone look more at the human face than at objects. It also determines toy-choice as well, with dolls being chosen over trucks in most cases of lower testosterone. Strangely, this occurs in other primates too. Maybe a deeper, or perhaps more superficial, level of communication is at work here.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

Why not share it directly? Why limit your participation to veiled insults ? Does that benefit us in any way?

It wasn't even a little bit veiled (though I know that is often the perceived way of women - and maybe also your way of seeing women)

It wasn't an insult - though I can see how you might interpret it that way. Definitely, it was meant to provoke

It was, however else you want to look at it - my opinion :-)

I am sorry , I still didn't get the opinion ? Your opinion is that mine sounds very scientific?

Funny - what you did there. Instead of accepting what I said the way I said it - you turned it into something else. Is this also something women do?

I honestly did not try to turn it into something else, though perhaps I fail to understand the meaning of how you wrote it. You wrote "We do this?" Was the question mark a typo? Did you mean to state "We do this. " That was supposed to state your opinion?
The question mark made me think it was a pointed question - which requires the reciever use their imagination to guess the implied meaning (instead of stating it explicitely.) From there, I could guess that you meant to imply that your opinion is quite different - Though what it is exactly, I cannot guess. I cannot see your body, facial expressions, or hear your tone of voice to help me decode things like pointed questions, sarcasm, irony, or other forms of implicit communication.

But if the question mark was intended, and you just asked for confirmation of what I wrote, I gave that.

I still have doubts, because you are refering even now to opinion you have which hasn't been described.
(Except that my view sounds scientific, which I'll assume you are referring to, for lack of another possibility...but I continue to wonder if you have more thoughts on the topic!)

postscript: Not for nothing Bluesma - but I've been reading along. It's been a fun read - even if our opinions are very different

Oh, I don't know that our opinions are very différent- I guess I agree that sometimes my opinions sound scientific because I am using a rather analytic process to organize my thoughts. I try to use personal anecdote to show where the ideas come from .... Not the scientific community.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

An interesting question- is the body language, and non- verbal communication deep or superficial?
Dépends, I guess.

I saw a humoristic sketch the other day, in which two women working side by side in an office have long exchanges in which they make comments which seem to be nice, but in fact are insults.
Both keep forcing smiles and refusing to acknowledge openly the under current of aggressivity going on, while bouncing back another.

This seemed really accurate to me, of what I observe more often between women.
Men will do this sort of verbal sparring, but more openly, so that nô matter how hostile the insults seem, There often seems to be a more friendly or benevolent under current!

There seems to be an unspoken understanding between women that the first to acknowledge openly what is happening is the loser.
I don' t understand that too much. Maybe it's like farts- when kids say "He who smelt it dealt it." ?
-Like there is something icky going on that neither wants to acknowledge and claim. But men seem to have no problem admitting they are being aggressive or competative. Aggression and competivity can be very positive though!

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

It wasn't an insult - though I can see how you might interpret it that way. Definitely, it was meant to provoke

It was, however else you want to look at it - my opinion :-)

_or were you refering to this -

So, now, do you think of yourself as a kind of authority on women?

Are you sure that was just a question with no implicit meaning? You REALLY wanted to know if I think I am an authority on women?????

a reply to: Bluesma

I've been told I speak in riddles - sometimes. I've also been told that I’m just being difficult and a major pain in the ass :-)

So, there is that

When I wrote that - I think I made it pretty clear that I'm a woman?

If I had been a man, when I asked you if you considered yourself to be an authority on women - would you see that as an insult or a very blunt and direct question? You're not an authority on women - you admitted as much, so my question was me actually trying to make a point

You asked me earlier why I don't just share my opinion more directly - and I guess it's because it's more fun the long way around. You've written so much already - and I'm short on time - so, the direct version

But - you have to promise not to take it as either an insult or even criticism. It's just my view on things

Women have had to live with this idea that we are conniving, manipulative, secretive, convoluted, scheming creatures for - well forever. You make an interesting point when you suggest that maybe we evolved into all that honestly - as a workaround to a situation where women had no direct power or influence

I hate using the word oppression - because it seems to translate directly into victim. But, if there’s one thing that seems to be pretty consistent throughout history it’s that oppressed people of all kinds are either assigned attributes that kinda sorta make up for something lacking, or those same oppressed people claim nearly magical powers for themselves. Again - to make up for something?

Are women supposed to be content with this special, magical power that we have? Is it a kind of booby prize?

Women are catty - this is where your thesis leads us. Sly French girls and bitchy women - our powers used for evil instead of good?

I know plenty of backstabbing, dishonest, conniving and manipulative men - and women who would like nothing more than to just be able to do what it is they want to do in this world without having to work around men that have decided it’s not their place to do it

What is feminism? Why feminism?

I could not understand the lack of explicitness in communications- which already is part of the french culture (the art of subtility is what they call it, I call it being passive aggressive...) but the lengths to which they will go to manipulate covertly is astounding!

This is why I ask: This is something we women do?

Et tu Bruja?

:-)

Ah... I knew there was some good stuff back there! I have noticed your posts before, and know you have an interesting mind! Thank you for taking the time and effort to share it!!!

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma
If I had been a man, when I asked you if you considered yourself to be an authority on women - would you see that as an insult or a very blunt and direct question? You're not an authority on women - you admitted as much, so my question was me actually trying to make a point

It was a pointed question! Whether you had been a man or a woman, I would have suspected it was being indirectly and implicitly trying to attack my confidence in my own views.
From my experience though, if it were a man, he would have followed that up with their opinion that was being implied- not left it a mystery. They would have less reluctance to projecting their personal view out there clearly.

I use the word Oppression with the definition in mind of stress or pressure from the exterior, which forces one to turn focus internally in response. This is used in a neutral way.
Consider how engines work, and gasoline? It is the pressure which creates a concentrated force. That force can be used for destructive or constructive activities- the event of that gasoline being put under pressure, is not inherently good nor bad.

Are women supposed to be content with this special, magical power that we have? Is it a kind of booby prize?

I felt that I was taking the "magic" out of the manipulation of emotion- now that our society has come to recognize psychology and neurobiology, I felt it we could de-mystify the myth of the witch. I feel that we have come far in learning how our emotions are extremely influencial in our choice making and thought- I find it hard to discount this as meaningless or without power then.

Women are catty - this is where your thesis leads us. Sly French girls and bitchy women - our powers used for evil instead of good?

I feel that you have not been paying attention to the specifics of what I wrote, but perhaps it was all too much.
I didn't include the mention of maturity and sense of power in the home randomly- I think they are extremely relevant to whether a person uses their abilities to manipulate emotion in a constructive or destructive way!

My thesis proposes that a person who lacks in maturity, and is lacking contexts in which they experience power outwardly, Their pull towards emotional manipulation is more often used to make others feel badly, to destroy their self confidence, their happiness, their joy. Those women who have areas of their life in which they can experience their power don't feel the need to use it that way- they will be more often using it to provoke self confidence, happiness, joy, comfort, etc. in others.

I know plenty of backstabbing, dishonest, conniving and manipulative men

I find those men are more likely trying to manipulate thought patterns, not emotions. But more importantly, they are more likely to be honest about exactly what they are doing to others. Men will be more likely to state after that they were trying to get a certain reaction, whereas young women often get so caught up their manipulations, they forget they played them and actually believe they were honest and straightforward the whole time! "-And why the hell didn't the other person just GET it? What do I need to do, spell it out for you??? Should I have to say it for you to understand?? "
Uh... yeah, you do... but in many cases, comprehension is not the goal. It is often feeling that they are searching for.
In "spelling it out" you make it clear not only for the other, but for yourself. You are forced to examine what your intents and meanings are, and accept responsibility for them.

and women who would like nothing more than to just be able to do what it is they want to do in this world without having to work around men that have decided it’s not their place to do it

Okay. I am especially fascinated by the women I have known who claim men have decided and are keeping them from doing things, when that is not the case- the men around them have done nothing to stop them, and it seems the blockages are all in their own head.

What is feminism? Why feminism?

That is a huge topic to get into. I don't really want to go off into that. I feel feminism is one of the forces which has de-valued the whole process of maternal nurture in our collective culture, and convinced women they were powerless victims instead of powerful influence, which, as I have said, I see as a factor in the abuse of these powers.

This is why I ask: This is something we women do?

Well, I find it strange you ask that question, when my view on that has taken up pages here, and many words, coming from every different angle! Yes, I think this is something we women do. That was the point of view of my OP, and all the following.
I do think women tend to try to manipulate emotions and psychology, in both negative and positive ways- to nurture and to destroy.
I have presented how I think that habit developed and was past down through time, how it is has been experienced and judged through time, and why I consider it a form of power, to influence others and the exterior world, in indirect ways.

Your post was thought provoking in many ways.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

I've been told I speak in riddles - sometimes. I've also been told that I’m just being difficult and a major pain in the ass :-)

So, there is that

When I wrote that - I think I made it pretty clear that I'm a woman?

I think you can see how this supports my thesis?

But - you have to promise not to take it as either an insult or even criticism. It's just my view on things

Criticism of my view is welcomed, the exposure of differing views is welcomed. It doesn't mean I'll change mine, or agree, but think adversity can be constructive, and I also get pleasure from watching another assert their personal perspective! I see an individual spreading their wings! It matters not whether those wings are the same as mine!

This comment here makes me wonder if the riddle-me this, long way around isn't stimulated by a fear of conflict?
In avoiding conflict through being vague and implicit, you stimulate negative emotions in others.


There is nothing so scary to the human psyche as the unknown. With the blackness of potential, we often will imagine monsters where there are none, the worst of things, and all our demons. When you leave these blanks of mystery, people will tend to put in the worst possible intents and ideas. I find it a bit troubling that that is amusing or fun for you to do.
It is true that you can watch emotional reactions get provoked in others through just a few words..... but I ask you to consider- are those emotions you provoke the kinds you really want to be responsible for creating?

a reply to: Bluesma

Okay. I am especially fascinated by the women I have known who claim men have decided and are keeping them from doing things, when that is not the case- the men around them have done nothing to stop them, and it seems the blockages are all in their own head.

you should read some history!!
or go live in saudi arabia and decide you want to drive to the store to buy a loaf of bread!

That is a huge topic to get into. I don't really want to go off into that. I feel feminism is one of the forces which has de-valued the whole process of maternal nurture in our collective culture, and convinced women they were powerless victims instead of powerful influence, which, as I have said, I see as a factor in the abuse of these powers.

it was devalued long before feminism came into the picture!
tell me were the women in afghanistan under the taliban a powerful influence hiding behind their blackened windows or getting beaten for walking too loudly or were they the victims of some powerful MEN who were abusing their power?

if a young women who just spent a few years in college and happens to graduate during a bad recession goes from one place to the next trying to find a job only to learn that the only jobs she will land are the jobs that no man would want to work at because well the man needs a job he has a family to care for the women but the women doesn't because well she has a man caring for her or danged well should have a not a victim of a believe system that has been ingrained into the human psyche for centuries? and was it not an abuse of power or the employers trying to cling to that power as long as they could? and aren't they still clinging to that power when they hire on an inexperienced new guy and pay them a few more dollars an hour more than they are paying the women who adept at doing the same job plus just about every other concieveable job that might need to be done in the place?

and by the way I was willing to walk (more like limp) the 7 miles or so in to town for those pants if I could only come up with the money. he had only one pair of pants that he could fit into comfortably ( ya know in the old days when the women wore those pretty although quite stiff clothing with the corsetts underneath one of the reasons why such things as the bloomers caught on was that the doctors of the time encouraged it! it seems that those pretty although very tight clothing were rearranging the placement of the organs in their bodies and well doing much harm! or are you going to now claim that mens bodies are so different than womens that too tight clothing on them wouldn't effect them in the same manner? And we wont even get into the times when he missed school because the money for his medicine wasn't there. I am not the type of person who is going to go fluttering my eyes and kissing arses to get what I need. I'll ask once maybe twice and if the answer is no I will find a way to get what I want or go without! My boss knew the medical bills were piling up and I was in an economic hell when I was working for him. I was there everyday even though it was quite obvious that I was hurting like hell and occasionally falling down while working. I asked him several times for a raise only to be told no it couldn't be done. Although he could find the extra money for someone who knew nothing about the industry! The guy he hired worked a few months and well fell on the ice outside the shop and hurt his back and ended up costing the company a heck of alot more when he filed disability. I ran into him a few weeks later working in an autobody shop under the table avoiding his child support payments! I ended up quiting the job and giving up the health insurance about a thousand dollar in the hole in medical bills and no diagnosis still for what was wrong with the foot. Which is a good part of why I am no longer working. My husband was ticked off that I had quit the job which is why there was no money for me or even a car to get where I was going. The bones in my ankle eventually snapped and well my hubby came home when I called him from his friends house to find me cooking supper trying to walk on it because well the kids needed to eat and if I didn't get them something no one would!

Ya men need jobs they have a family to support. Women have men to take care of them! sure!!!
but by all means continue on!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Bluesma
you should read some history!!
or go live in saudi arabia and decide you want to drive to the store to buy a loaf of bread!

"Women I have known" indicates neither women who lived long ago, nor ones that live in Saudi Arabia. I have been open about where I am from and where I have lived.
I have been clear that I am focusing specifically on a certain pattern of behavior that I have observed around me.

it was devalued long before feminism came into the picture!
tell me were the women in afghanistan under the taliban a powerful influence hiding behind their blackened windows or getting beaten for walking too loudly or were they the victims of some powerful MEN who were abusing their power?

See above response.

if a young women who just spent a few years in college and happens to graduate during a bad recession goes from one place to the next trying to find a job only to learn that the only jobs she will land are the jobs that no man would want to work at because well the man needs a job he has a family to care for the women but the women doesn't because well she has a man caring for her or danged well should have a not a victim of a believe system that has been ingrained into the human psyche for centuries? and was it not an abuse of power or the employers trying to cling to that power as long as they could? and aren't they still clinging to that power when they hire on an inexperienced new guy and pay them a few more dollars an hour more than they are paying the women who adept at doing the same job plus just about every other concieveable job that might need to be done in the place?

How do you explain the occurence of women who do not have this situation happen to them? That they find good jobs?
What is the factor which separates these two different fates? That is what has always fascinated me.

Women have men to take care of them! sure!!!
but by all means continue on!

THAT right there! Are you mad because you thought you would have a man to take care of you, and that doesn't seem to be the case?

Does it ever cross your mind that the problems you ran into were this expectation?
I just saw you make a reference, in another thread, on you lacking a example to follow if your husband is playing video games all the time. I think you were trying to make a point, not describing your actual situation... but it reflects also what you wrote here- that there is some expectation of the man to be the "boss" or guide, or master. Someone to ask before acting.

What makes you think he wants that sort of responsibility????

I'll tell you something else I noticed-
As my husband began to rise in his career, to more responsibility, more prestige, more money, we began to naturally form friendships with couples of the same social level.
I noticed that with all of them, the man is powerful at work, outside, in the community,
but at home?
SHE'S the boss! And I do not mean that in a negative way!!! I mean, at home he gets relieved of all that weight, of having to make all the decisions, (and take the blame for them). He can relax and know someone else will choose, AND recognize their responsibility for the choices that don't work out as planned.

In a sense, they are able to recharge their batteries and spend more energy outside because the wife is not draining them, expecting them to be their leader and master too. Everyone needs a space or context in their life where they can be passive as well as aggressive.

It sounds (though I am aware my opinion isn't worth anything when it comes to your life, and my knowledge is limited- though this allows you to be aware of impressions you send out) that you have become a victim of your own belief and expectations of men that were unrealistic. NOT the men themselves!

See above response

ya right it seems that this great power women have only exist in certain areas okay...
those areas where they have been granted that power
okay but that seems to support what I am saying in that in other areas in other times other circumstances this power that you are proclaiming is next to worthless

How do you explain the occurence of women who do not have this situation happen to them? That they find good jobs? What is the factor which separates these two different fates? That is what has always fascinated me.

they didn't live in texas during the recession of the 1980's? That was the explanation I got from my husband as to why no one was hiring me it was confirmed to me years later by another person who said basically the same thing.


lol no I didn't expect a man to take care of me
although my mother seemed to expect it when I asked her for the small amount of money that I needed to take the entrance exams to get into college right after high school and she said something like no you don't need college you are gonna marry a rich man and he will take care of you and me!!
no I wanted to take care of myself! share my life with my husband with no real need for us to manipulate each other to do our bidding! Just a desire to be with each other! you are the one who seems to think we should be manipulative!

SHE'S the boss! And I do not mean that in a negative way!!! I mean, at home he gets relieved of all that weight, of having to make all the decisions, (and take the blame for them). He can relax and know someone else will choose, AND recognize their responsibility for the choices that don't work out as planned.

hmm for some it might be like that but others the man might just want to make the decisions and have some control and when he comes home he only wants the relief from having to work more so support his family and cleaning up after himself preparing his meals and washing his clothes. when that happens you are more apt to get griped at when you spend a small amount of the money YOU EARNED on something you wanted and doing so will be classified as wasting HIS MONEY! in such cases it is the women who is drained and failing and desparately needs recharging!

I think the disconnect and conflict comes when some choose to hold up an image close to what you are describing as being the bliss that feminism took from women while they try to force society back to what was. while my description seems to so many to be a more accurate portrayal of what was the norm for most of the women.

I have no problem when women find themselves blessed with the lifestyle you seem to be living. Good for you!!
but the fact that roadblocks were set up both legally and psychologically to block women who haven't been so blessed from doing what they needed to do has caused alot of problems here in america for both men and women!!
For every man out there griping about their child support there's probably a women who has found her labor at work valued far less than the men who were doing the same danged job or blocked from a good paying job she was perfectly capable of doing but she was passed over because a man (even an inexperienced one) wanted the job! Is such discrimination illegal now in the US- yes for the time being but some want those laws tossed to the curb. But it really is kind of hard to prove and not worth the effort in my book to to take legal measures to find justice. Feminism may have made great strides in the legal aspects but just a few sunday visits to the church of your choice or some time visiting ATS shows that the psychological aspect of it is far from corrected.

I worked as long as I could limping around the shop sometimes falling living on four hours or less sleep because I had to to keep my kids clothed and fed and have the medications they needed. If my husband had been more helpful around the house maybe things would have been different. If my boss would have given me that raise I asked for maybe things would have been different. But well my husband was tired after his job and needed to "recharge" and my boss saw the inexperienced guy he just hired as more valuable. Funny thing is that after I recovered from the broken ankle I manage to get another job somewhere else and well it ended with basically the same story. And well what is even funnier is when I quite these jobs the bosses could understand why I quit they watched me and knew how much pain I was in...
My husband? na, I should have kept working!!
I used to walk just about everywhere I went, I loved walking and a seven mile walk across town was quite enjoyable for me. Now walking down to the mailbox is a painful task!
But well continue on and tell me more about how I screwed everything up!

originally posted by: dawnstar

ya right it seems that this great power women have only exist in certain areas okay...
those areas where they have been granted that power
okay but that seems to support what I am saying in that in other areas in other times other circumstances this power that you are proclaiming is next to worthless

Growth and development through adversity is what i was referring to, as a process of evolution. We might not all be in the same stage of development at the same time- as individuals, or as societies.

Granted, just because a painful situation you had didn't kill you, it doesn't mean you should ignore or encourage others to have to go through it too.

But to put things as simply as I can- pull the stick out of your own eye before attempting to pull it out of another's!

Heal yourself, or get out of that situation, (and be clear on how you did so) before setting off to help others do the same!
Otherwise you are just making the situation worse.

First look at where you are, here and now, the current situation, realistically.
I often have to repair things at home, like the car, the dishwasher, the dryer... at work things like this come up all the time. The first thing I have learned is to observe-) neutrally, how things are.. not how they SHOULD be!
As that becomes more clear, the solutions appear on their own.

So for women today, in America, I ask to look at this moment, at your environment- are men around you blocking you from doing what you want?
Not in the past, not in the future, not on the other side of the world, or in the story of someone else.
Is the "patriarchy" inside of you, or out there?

they didn't live in texas during the recession of the 1980's? That was the explanation I got from my husband as to why no one was hiring me it was confirmed to me years later by another person who said basically the same thing.

Okay, so during that recession, I knew women who were finishing college and getting jobs (my mom graduated in the mid eighties). So you may have been in a particular place and time which had a specific type of events happening- then.
Now, is it the same? Or are you holding onto old grudges and views?

I have a daughter who just finished college, and immediately had several corporations wooing her, so that she was able to choose what suited her best. Even before signing the contract, she got pregnant and told them that, and they still decided to sign her anyway. Somehow she has gotten out of the whole oppressive partriarchy thing- and without investing in sexy clothes!

She also left directly for college after graduation, and we never helped her financially. She paid her schooling (granted it is less than in the US) herself, working all kinds of jobs. She also paid her own apartment and food. She didn't ever ASK us to do so. It never entered her mind. She was never instilled with those ideas. The females today did not have the same type of upbringing as you did. That is important to know before trying to convince them they are victims that need to strike back.

hmm for some it might be like that but others the man might just want to make the decisions and have some control and when he comes home he only wants the relief from having to work more so support his family and cleaning up after himself preparing his meals and washing his clothes.

You have misunderstood my usage of the word boss- it does not mean "slave", it means the one who makes the decisions and delegates work. The one who tells each person what they should do next. NOT do it for them.
There is a certain sort of ease in just having someone else tell you what to do. Even in being able to gripe and bitch about them, but at least there is someone else to do that about.

I think the disconnect and conflict comes when some choose to hold up an image close to what you are describing as being the bliss that feminism took from women while they try to force society back to what was. while my description seems to so many to be a more accurate portrayal of what was the norm for most of the women.

Then you have misunderstood me. If you want to get into the whole feminism movement (it seems everyone wants to go there) I think that it was necessary and beneficial before, and now, has gotten destructive because it is going too far, not recognizing the changes that have happened. There are moments to recognize it is time to stop.

Now, in looking at where we are, what we've got, how we can do the most and the best with it, is what I am interested in- not wallowing in the past and revengeful incriminations. So you have the ability now, to be sensitive to internal emotions and how they influence peoples actions- partly from having been through suffering.
So what you going to do with that??? Use it to heal or to hurt?? To try to pull someone else out the mud (and have them forever in debt to you) or to encourage them to pull themselves out and then be free of debt to anyone!

I have no problem when women find themselves blessed with the lifestyle you seem to be living.

I was not "blessed", there was no luck, no magic, involved. I MADE it happen, and with my collaborator/co-creative partner, we faced a lot of huge challenges and adversity and overcame them. That is how I know it CAN be done. But I also know it isn't easy, and it is not just a light hearted thumbs up that will help others do it too. Part of what was so hard about it was overcoming my own demons and belief systems that blocked me and that I blamed on others.

Dawnstar- "fault" is not part of my vocabulary, for a reason.

Looking for fault is being powerless. Looking for responsibility is giving yourself POWER.
Condemnation, of yourself or anyone else, is just a way of draining away confidence and strength.
It is not in draining anothers strength, that you gain it. It is not draining away yours that I will gain any either.

Look for your responsibility and you will regain your power. For ultimately, they are two sides of the same coin.

I feel no condemnation of you, and don't wish you to either. But I am pointing the way to your own keys.