CIA torture report could ignite unrest, Kerry warns

a reply to: Bedlam

Okay lets say that's the case.

The good guys know that the villagers are being held in an old hostel to the east. The terrorist they are torturing tells them the village people are in that terrorist training camp I mentioned earlier. The good guys get this info by torturing the terrorist. But they know he's either lying or he doesn't know. Because the good guts know that the villagers are actually in an old hostel to the east.

What do they do? Continue torturing this terrorist whom may not even know the answer to their questions? I am quite certain that part of terrorist training is interrogation resistance.

Torture is wrong. No matter how its sliced and presented to us nicely plated with a sprig of garnishment.

a reply to: butcherguy

Ah but see, even in the intelligence community no intel is better than false or exaggerated intel.

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: butcherguy

Ah but see, even in the intelligence community no intel is better than false or exaggerated intel.

False leads are a waste of time and resources... But they are still followed every day, in an effort to find the 1% that is verifiable.

a reply to: butcherguy

By law enforcement perhaps. But by spooks? Not often. See, police usually know what the crime is when they interrogate. Intel officers have to gather intelligence on what they don't know, more often than not.

a reply to: CagliostroTheGreat

Think about it. They have to start somewhere. They get info from a previously unverified source.... you saying that they do not check it out? They just drop it?
How would they ever get humint using that method?

Even if they cultivate a source, they must always verify. Ever heard of a double agent?

No, the politicians (Bush White House Included) DID NOT WANT TO KNOW. It's called plausible deniability. If you didn't ever hear about it how can you be guilty of supporting it? The CIA simply said "let us do whatever we think we need to do" and the politicians say "go right ahead".

Nixon failed to work out the finer points of the ignorance strategy but it was later perfected under the Clintons (both of them).

Would this report stir up more trouble for the US? How is it possible for others to hate us more than they do already? They know our dirty tricks - we borrowed most of them straight from the Inquisitor's General handbook. Kerry wants nothing more than to wait until the time is right to release the report so the #storm of sound and fury can be a useful distraction from something more troubling to the present administration.

Watch the other hand folks. The one they wave in front of you is not the hand with the knife in it.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

How is it possible for others to hate us more than they do already?

It's not others "hating us" that will be the problem. It's that more of us will begin "hating us", that will be a major issue.

People are happy living in their own little bubbles, oblivious to everything. Illegals are easy to ignore when it isn't your work they are taking, your neighborhoods going down the tube. War and torture is easy enough to ignore when it's happening on the other side of the globe.

People learned a "valuable lesson" from vietnam. You really couldn't ignore it, it was all over the TV, in all it's ugly glory, all the time. Now they give little snippets here and there, and only show the "victories". They don't show the whole ugly reality that is war, it's is not in our face 24/7, easy enough to ignore.

a reply to: butcherguy

I think you might be confusing actual intel with intel gathered through the use of torture. If someone says "hey we think these guts are terrorists, you might want to check them out.", then yes that intel is most likely going to see further investigation.

And I'm not saying intelligence agents don't act on intel gathered through torture, they do. What I am saying is that, more often than not, information gathered that way only serves to muddy the waters. Now if the interrogators have reason to believe that the detainee has viable intel, they will work to aquire said info but even then it remains a gamble because that detainee can still lie.

a reply to: TKDRL

People are happy living in their own little bubbles, oblivious to everything.

Either that, or they concoct fairytale scenarios like saving New York City from a nuclear attack, so it's OK to torture some folks. People watch too much tv!

a reply to: CagliostroTheGreat

Actually, I don't believe I am confused about it.
I have already admitted that torture is a poor method of gaining information.
I have posed a situation where I would advocate the use of torture to gain information and that situation is extreme... and I hope for our future, rare.
In the case of my hypothetical, resources would certainly be made available to run down info to ascertain its validity. If only false info was given by the terrorist, nothing would be gained, but if no effort is made to get info.... chance of success is zero.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
it rings of demonic to torture

Really? I think ISIL fits that bill. How else do you get them to spill the beans? I wonder if they tried pigs blood yet poured on their faces yet? LMAO! I would hang them from their toes with piano wire till they told the truth. Water boarding is hardly torture in the sense of real torture. At least we did not torture them or their family and behead them on YouTube.

Then again the BS rendition of people that were not involved with anything I have a major problem with.

Bring back the pear of anguish and torture rack for all I care.

Can you point me to something about being told to scrub our social media for offensive content? I remember being told to do a check on OPSEC but not to remove or alter "offensive" content. a reply to: eisegesis

a reply to: TKDRL

I have to disagree.
The only reason the public couldn't ignore it was because kids kept coming home in body bags.
TV coverage didn't sway anyone's opinions so far I can recall.

I don't feel torture is of any value...............proven to be inefficient ! Long term confinement in a low cost with very limited interaction with other beings is the only solution. Remove them from society and keep them incarcerated at the absolute lowest cost to the rest of us. Even to the point of having them produce their own food.(or starve to death at their own hand).

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: tothetenthpower

So making somebody sleepy and not giving them their own private apartment is torture? Okay, great. Studies show what they show. I still don't feel bad for terrorists being sleepy. Sorry.

Sleepy?

How full of # is this comment?

We are talking sleep deprivation thats a whole diffrent bull park on just "sleepy".

I suffer from a medical condition that at its worst causes sleep deprivation and can result in medical emegancys.

Next you will say water boading is just makeing some "a bit wet".

a reply to: tothetenthpower
Wow. It's almost like...we shouldn't torture folks and stuff. Because that rubs people the wrong way for some reason? Unintended consequences, and all that...although I'd personally not consider them unexpected.

I'm sure things would be different if the world were just, you know...CHILL, man...

Mind = blown

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: TKDRL
a reply to: tothetenthpower
As a chronic insomniac, I can tell you sleep deprivation is torture. Want to know how to feel really crazy? Stay up for a few days, if you can even manage it. Being in a place with little outside stimulation to distract your mind while doing it, kinda amplifies the effects. All you have is your insane thoughts.

It's basically been proven that you start to hallucinate after 72 straight hours ( I think that's the mark), and that's without outside stimulus to screw with you.

So include food deprivation, confined spaces and usually that god awful loud music they've been playing at them 24/hrs a day and to me, that's VERY much a torturing experiment.

~Tenth

Yeah when you hit the 72 hour mark very bad things start to happen.
Sleep deprivation will kill you eventualy.

Its always happened. Some things just arent spoken about after they are done..
Dead men tell no lies and victories promp little suspicion.

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: Bedlam

Okay lets say that's the case.

What do they do? Continue torturing this terrorist whom may not even know the answer to their questions?

You don't ask questions blindly. Sheesh. You'd think the human race hasn't been doing this for millenia.

And you generally save this sort of thing for the right person, not random personnel. The very best ones are often highly placed clerks and command staff and support. The general's aide is a prized possession.