If God knows the future then no one has free will

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Tangerine

Then you have no free will?

Or there is no God?

In my opinion, the latter. For that matter, free will, even outside of a Christian context, is absurd. We are not free to do anything. Our choices are limited.

a reply to: danielsil18

Please refer to my thread which gives proof that Jesus is not omnipotent. Jesus is currently the one who is Most High Authority and not God the Father who is all knowing.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Emerald53
a reply to: danielsil18

Please refer to my thread which gives proof that Jesus is not omnipotent. Jesus is currently the one who is Most High Authority and not God the Father who is all knowing.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

A Bible quote isn't proof of anything except that the words appeared in one of the many versions of the Bible.

a reply to: Tangerine

What nonsense, than don't argue the Bible if my quote isn't reliable. Or are only the bits that suit you reliable ? I have given the answer to the complaint. God isn't the one in charge right now, Jesus is and Jesus isn't omnipotent so there is freewill.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Tangerine

Then you have no free will?

Or there is no God?

In my opinion, the latter. For that matter, free will, even outside of a Christian context, is absurd. We are not free to do anything. Our choices are limited.

You have misunderstood freewill. Freewill is the ability to make our own choices. Freewill is not the ability to do anything we imagine.

No one is forcing you to use this site, hence freewill is in full swing.

a reply to: Emerald53

No, you misunderstand the meaning of the word free as in free will. Free implies lack of restriction.

originally posted by: danielsil18
If someone knows what decisions we will make, who we will marry, what will happen to us, when we will die, etc then it suggests that we dont have free will. We are just experiencing the life we are supposed to have.

This would only apply to those who believe god has a "divine plan" and/or knows the future.

If god knew who you would marry and you married that person then you never had that choice. But if you chose someone else then god doesnt know the future.

if god knows the future then more questions would come like the tree in the Garden of Eden when god "tested" Adam and Eve or when satan was created.

But my question is how could we have free will if god knows our future or already planned everything out.

Free will is expression...no free will, no expression - no need...In relation to God/Source and Us, you do the math...

...and while parts of our machinery operate very much like servo-mechanisms (reflexive feed-back loops)...(and some like to confuse the hair-splitting 'limited free will') proposing the absurdist notion that we do not have free will would be an oxymoronic statement, for really obvious reasons...

The default position has be that we are gifted Free Will as a parameter to allow full expression (see above)...that includes the ability to imagine not having free will (and staunchists will reverse this argument to claim you could imagine that you had free will - absurdist in the extreme)...

As expressions of Source, the boring part would be knowing everything that will happen, without input...welcome to borgworld...

The history and drama of all lives are the small and large, important and seemingly innocuous decisions made along the way...the journey...most focus on destinations/outcomes - little 'beginning and ending' episodes, viewed across 80 or so years - when the point is How did you get there?...and those who would perform diversionary behaviour do not look to themselves as the source - Source is Almighty...there can be no rival of any nature except the enabled parameters of Free Will expressed through splinters of Source...

...and if I had no free will - I was always going to say this anyway...

Å99

originally posted by: Tangerine
Uh..but God wrote the novel, so to speak.

How much God is novel reader, novel writer, or a complex mixture of the two, is a different question.
I have been deliberately limiting myself to the issue of whether knowledge of the future is enough by itself, as argued in the OP, to take away freedom of will.

originally posted by: Emerald53
a reply to: Tangerine

What nonsense, than don't argue the Bible if my quote isn't reliable. Or are only the bits that suit you reliable ? I have given the answer to the complaint. God isn't the one in charge right now, Jesus is and Jesus isn't omnipotent so there is freewill.

None of it suits me. It's a collection of myths cobbled together by ancients to frighten and control the masses. Apparently, you can not distinguish between fact and myth.

Assuming GOD (or whatever you perfer to call it) even exists, maybe it knows all your future outcomes. The GOD concept would not be constrained by our 3D boundries. Sitting outside our space/time existance, it would have the advantage of observing time all at once... All possible outcomes.

In this sense, it would know your future... all of them... But how you get there and ultimitly which one plays is up too you.

just a thought.

a reply to: danielsil18

Always an interesting topic.

The same argument can be applied to deterministic science.

Were all the events after the Big Bang predetermined? If consciousness is an internal system then surely every thought you've had is a product of the last thought which ultimately depends on every event happening as it did right back to the Big Bang.

Therefore, in essence, you never had choice but simply the illusion of choice.

Or even with the parallel universe/multiverse idea you have the same concept that all possible actions and events occur therefore as the 'experiencer' of this specific timeline you are bound to a predetermined fate.

In reality, the truth is that humans have a genuinely hard time pinpointing and philosophising about the concept of 'free-will', especially considering the fact that we don't even have equal amounts of choice between us.

It is much more complicated than we like to admit and raises a lot of questions about the way we judge people's actions and thoughts. We cannot even completely explain the phenomena of consciousness let alone choice.

I guess one way of seeing it, whether it be from a strictly God or Scientific viewpoint, is that with every continuous thought and hence action we make or choose to make, we change the future in real time.

That would mean that the future is constantly changing based on individual actions, but if time was to be frozen at any given point the future would be deterministic.

In that sense, to answer your question I would presume that the creator of this universe would always be aware of the future, but that does not necessarily mean the future is one set planned outcome from the start.

Hope that makes sense.

Peace

originally posted by: DazDaKing
a reply to: danielsil18


...
I guess one way of seeing it, whether it be from a strictly God or Scientific viewpoint, is that with every continuous thought and hence action we make or choose to make, we change the future in real time.

That would mean that the future is constantly changing based on individual actions, but if time was to be frozen at any given point the future would be deterministic.

In that sense, to answer your question I would presume that the creator of this universe would always be aware of the future, but that does not necessarily mean the future is one set planned outcome from the start.

Hope that makes sense.

Peace

Christians believe that God, the Creator, is all-knowing and all-powerful. How, then, could an all-knowing God not know what his creations would do? How could an all-knowing, all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wished and nothing else?

a reply to: Tangerine

"Christians believe that God, the Creator, is all-knowing and all-powerful. How, then, could an all-knowing God not know what his creations would do?" Quote Tangerine

She/He does...but as expressions of itself, it gives 'its' selves' the ability to choose from all possibilities.

"How could an all-knowing, all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wished and nothing else?" Quote Tangerine

See above...
What would be the use of this?

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99
a reply to: Tangerine

"Christians believe that God, the Creator, is all-knowing and all-powerful. How, then, could an all-knowing God not know what his creations would do?" Quote Tangerine

She/He does...but as expressions of itself, it gives 'its' selves' the ability to choose from all possibilities.

"How could an all-knowing, all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wished and nothing else?" Quote Tangerine

See above...
What would be the use of this?

Å99

You don't seem to understand what all-knowing and all-powerful mean. If you, the all-knowing God, know what someone is going to do before you create them and you don't want them to do it, you, being all-powerful, create them to do exactly that which you do want them to do. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: akushla99
a reply to: Tangerine

"Christians believe that God, the Creator, is all-knowing and all-powerful. How, then, could an all-knowing God not know what his creations would do?" Quote Tangerine

She/He does...but as expressions of itself, it gives 'its' selves' the ability to choose from all possibilities.

"How could an all-knowing, all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wished and nothing else?" Quote Tangerine

See above...
What would be the use of this?

Å99

You don't seem to understand what all-knowing and all-powerful mean. If you, the all-knowing God, know what someone is going to do before you create them and you don't want them to do it, you, being all-powerful, create them to do exactly that which you do want them to do. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

There's no grasping...(and while we're at it, you'd probably be well advised to not assume what you think I understand)...

There is a confusion here. Deterministic sandpits do not exist. They couldn't.

If I am the all-knowing, all-powerful creator - of what use is the creation of splinters of myself, (created for the sole purpose of experiencing everything and anything in the sandpit) if I know what I'm going to do?...which assumes I need to create those splinters in the first place to do exactly what I want them/me, to do...which is ridiculous for an all-knowing, all-powerful entity to contemplate...might as well have created robots, or not created anything at all...robots we are not - unless you subscribe to the notion that we have no free will (which would make what I have just said more plausible - re robots)...you're welcome to that idiocy...

Source did not create mini-god robots...if it did, we wouldn't have the Free Will to contemplate the unfairness or the delight of situations we manouver into, to not know why this was so, or not...many illumined minds (using free will) debate and produce papers to prove that we don't have free will...what idiots are listening?...and why? Of what use is intelligence in this equation?...

Working from there, being all-powerful and all-knowing, doesn't mean you need to control everything...that's where the mistake is...

Å99

God is not like us. He is outside of time and space. We know that because He created time and space, or space-time. When you are outside of time and space, there is no future, no past. It is all present. Therefore, He knows the "present", which to you is the future.

For example, the Bible refers to us as being written in the Lamb's Book of Life, refers to Jesus being in heaven while on Earth, refers to us being seated in heaven.

These concepts are difficult for our finite minds. Don't be surprised. For example, when God created the heavens and the Earth, He did it from nothing. That means, before there was space, there was no space, no vacuum, no infinite distance, nothing. There was only God.

Good luck in your pursuit of the Truth.

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: akushla99
a reply to: Tangerine

"Christians believe that God, the Creator, is all-knowing and all-powerful. How, then, could an all-knowing God not know what his creations would do?" Quote Tangerine

She/He does...but as expressions of itself, it gives 'its' selves' the ability to choose from all possibilities.

"How could an all-knowing, all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wished and nothing else?" Quote Tangerine

See above...
What would be the use of this?

Å99

You don't seem to understand what all-knowing and all-powerful mean. If you, the all-knowing God, know what someone is going to do before you create them and you don't want them to do it, you, being all-powerful, create them to do exactly that which you do want them to do. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

There's no grasping...(and while we're at it, you'd probably be well advised to not assume what you think I understand)...

There is a confusion here. Deterministic sandpits do not exist. They couldn't.

If I am the all-knowing, all-powerful creator - of what use is the creation of splinters of myself, (created for the sole purpose of experiencing everything and anything in the sandpit) if I know what I'm going to do?...which assumes I need to create those splinters in the first place to do exactly what I want them/me, to do...which is ridiculous for an all-knowing, all-powerful entity to contemplate...might as well have created robots, or not created anything at all...robots we are not - unless you subscribe to the notion that we have no free will (which would make what I have just said more plausible - re robots)...you're welcome to that idiocy...

Source did not create mini-god robots...if it did, we wouldn't have the Free Will to contemplate the unfairness or the delight of situations we manouver into, to not know why this was so, or not...many illumined minds (using free will) debate and produce papers to prove that we don't have free will...what idiots are listening?...and why? Of what use is intelligence in this equation?...

Working from there, being all-powerful and all-knowing, doesn't mean you need to control everything...that's where the mistake is...

Å99

I was talking about the Christian God within the context of Christian belief: he is all-knowing and all-powerful. Personally, I think it's a crock. Free will within such a construct is an absurdity.Either you can see that or you can't.

originally posted by: Jim Scott
God is not like us. He is outside of time and space. We know that because He created time and space, or space-time. When you are outside of time and space, there is no future, no past. It is all present. Therefore, He knows the "present", which to you is the future.

For example, the Bible refers to us as being written in the Lamb's Book of Life, refers to Jesus being in heaven while on Earth, refers to us being seated in heaven.

These concepts are difficult for our finite minds. Don't be surprised. For example, when God created the heavens and the Earth, He did it from nothing. That means, before there was space, there was no space, no vacuum, no infinite distance, nothing. There was only God.

Good luck in your pursuit of the Truth.

No, we don't know that. We just know that you claimed it absent an iota of testable evidence proving that it is fact.

a reply to: Tangerine

Yes/no...
Being all-powerful and all-knowing does not mean you need to control everything. That is the mistake...which is why we have free will, to make the mistakes...it's the perfect sign of true benevolence - to have that power and knowledge, but allow everything to take place, without control...like the control through power and knowledge, you are suggesting...it would, and does negate free will, I agree, that is absurd...but I'm not a subscriber to the Xtian interpretation.

Å99

humans were created by a hyper-dimensional species that has learned to contain consiousness with a particle recombination technique that utilizes the particles and compressed the energy imprinting a script into the particle for example binary so that the other particles created in the recombination chambers act as a quatum computer connection that consiousness can exist outside the state of flesh.

This is why spirituality is so engrained into our society, Because ultimately here is more than one route to accension.

Our creators intended us to pick the path of living matter in a truely alternate sense. In the form of spirit, because that's the best way to describe it.

Or we could become cyborgs. I mean its up to you lol. You can live for the flesh or live for the spirit.