Russian Tanks Move Across Ukraine Border: NATO Chief Breedlove

a reply to: VirusGuard

The entirely of western civilization knows the Crimea referendum was a complete sham. There has never been a referendum where there was

1: 83% Voter turnout
2: 97% in favor of "returning to Russia" (nevermind the fact that any such referendum would need to have Ukraine's involvment)

The real story is:

1: 30% Voter turnout
2: Approx 50% in favor of returning to Russia

So this means, only about 15% of the people of Crimea voted to return to Russia.

Source

a reply to: Xcathdra

They will lose a second cold war

And what exactly they gonna lose ? How do you see losing in the second cold war ?

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: Xcathdra

They will lose a second cold war

And what exactly they gonna lose ? How do you see losing in the second cold war ?

Because Putin is doing the very thing that led to the collapse of the USSR the first time. The Russian military is in a sad state of affairs and with Putler's misadventures in ukraine the money he hda before hand is longer present. It means he cant upgrade the military on the time table he set.

Putler put the cart before the horse, just as Hitler did. He is confusing his scheduled upgrades with what he actually has.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I didn't asked why they gonna lose, I was more interested how do you see Russia after losing in the second cold war ?

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: Xcathdra

I didn't asked why they gonna lose, I was more interested how do you see Russia after losing in the second cold war ?

Because Putin sees himself and the Russian military as something its not in reality. If they can get rid of Putin and the cancer that surrounds him Russia could easily become a world power house.

Putins actions are the cause of the very thing he did not want to occur.

Russia Threat Prompts Nordic Governments to Prepare for Worst

Governments in the Nordic and Baltic region are stepping up their defense preparedness in response to repeated Russian incursions into their territories.

“What we are doing is what is to be expected from a military and political alliance: We are preparing ourselves for what we hope will not happen, we are preparing ourselves for the worst,” Norway’s Defense Minister Ine Eriksen Soereide said today in Oslo. “That’s our obligation, that’s an important step in preventing something from happening.”

At a meeting in the Norwegian capital today that included U.K. Defense SecretaryMichael Fallon, ministers agreed to step up cross-border training as part of a regional alliance to ward off any Russian threat. President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly flouted international airspace rules, a behavior that Fallon characterized as “provocative.”

Russia is engaged in “dangerous brinkmanship” toward NATO and Nordic nations in its military moves, with almost 40 incidents of incursions and close encounters since March, according to a Nov. 10 report by European Leadership Network.

The research group identified three incidents that carried a “high probability” of causing casualties or direct military conflict, including a narrowly avoided collision on March 3 between a civilian SAS Group AB airliner taking off from Copenhagen and a Russian reconnaissance plane operating without its transponder, a device that identifies a plane.

Northern European Nations Have Agreed To Boost Security Cooperation Against Russia

OSLO (Reuters) - Eight northern European nations agreed on Wednesday to step up cooperation to counter an increase in Moscow's military activity that has included a tripling of NATO intercepts of Russian jets this year.

Defense ministers from Nordic and Baltic states and Britain agreed to do more to share intelligence and widen cross-border air force training in the Nordic region after the crisis in Ukraine raised East-West tensions.

British Defense Secretary Michael Fallon said Russia was "regularly flouting the rules of international aviation" and intimidating nations by sending jets as far as Ireland and Portugal.

"NATO has recorded over 100 intercepts so far this year, three times as many as in 2013 and the year is not yet finished," he told a news conference. "We will not allow Russia to continue to invade our air space."

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ok, I understand according to the report Russia and i quote

"We are in a new stage of our relationship with Russia, that is very clear. Russia has stepped outside the framework of international law."

What about Israel ? Israel living in this situation 40+ years. Why Russia is going to lose and not to prosper 40 years ?

a reply to: tavi45

Funny you say that since anytime a Russian source is used it's called propaganda. Are you implying that Western media never engages in propaganda?

And yet anytime a western source is used the same can be said.

I never said they don't, so what is your point?

a reply to: canucks555

Also where are all these heavy weapons the separatists are using coming from

Exactly...the bases they pilfered early on in this conflict aren't endless amounts of weaponry, yet they seem to always have ammo and artillery.

Even Stevie Wonder can see what's happening here.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Problem is that it's impossible to debate people who have entrenched themselves in two separate philosophies that put together do not make sense.

-Russia is not involved in the Ukraine
-East Ukraine is Russian and I support Russias participation in that arena.

?

Which is it?
The debate would be better imo if we could all just agree on the obvious. Yes, Russia is participating in the war in East Ukraine. Enough of this Baghdad Bob nonsense.

a reply to: canucks555

-East Ukraine is Russian and I support Russian participation in that arena.

Exactly. Moreover, Russia have rights on Kiev like Israel have rights on Jerusalem. And they have permanent veto in UN.
They have mad Putin ? - Ok, many think that Netanyhoo is no less mad.

The main difference is just that USA doesn't like Russia and vetoing for Israel.

a reply to: canucks555

Where exactly are all these Russians dying? (There are funerals every day)

Exactly. Let's not forget that it was Russian newspapers that broke the story of secret funerals and military hospitals filled to capacity. Let's not forget that it was Russian journalists who were threatened and attacked for looking into this matter. It really comes down to two options either A.) The Russian military is operating within Ukraine's borders or B.) They have the most incompetent military in history if they're losing so many soldiers to training exercises.

a reply to: kitzik

Russia has rights on Kiev as much as it has rights on Stockholm. Which is none. Show me legal documents that state Kiev belongs to Russia.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Show me legal documents that state Kiev belongs to Russia.

Kiev is historical capital of first Russian state. Jerusalem is historical capital capital of first Jewish state.
Show me legal documents that Israel have rights on Jerusalem.

Ukrainians, well, poor cousins like Palestinians. Not real Russians , occupants of historical Russia.

a reply to: kitzik

and Russia acknowledged Ukraine as a separate and independent nation, including Crimea, when the USSR collapsed.

Ukraine nor any of its cities belong to Russia.

If you feel that way then I am sure russia would have no issues returning Kaliningrad back to Germany.

a reply to: kitzik

So just postulation. No legal proof. Gotcha. Just making sure we're clear.

a reply to: kitzik

You're saying that Ukraine is actually in fact Russian thus Russia has full rights to invasion? What political playbook are you reading from? Time and borders mean nothing I guess. That's the way Putin sees it as well.

If you feel that way then I am sure russia would have no issues returning Kaliningrad back to Germany.


zing!

a reply to: Xcathdra

USSR is a huge historical mistake of Russia and west agrees with this.
State Ukraine never existed before 1991.
Just rectifying small historical aberrations.

Israel was losing territory for a much longer period.
There is no such thing like Ukraine, Ukraine is Palestine.

Your next move ?

a reply to: kitzik

and Ukraine became a separate sovereign nation when the USSR collapsed. We know this because russia and several other countries signed the Budapest memorandum saying so. Trying to ignore the treaty in order to justify russias illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea wont work.

Secondly Ukraine did exist prior to the soviet union as part of the Ottoman empire.

Third take the Israel argument to that thread. You guys are constantly trying to derail these discussions with useless information.

Care to answer my question now?

If we use your logic should Russia return Kaliningrad back to Germany?

Or does this discussion only run in one direction?


The more I see you guys make these idiotic arguments the more I think Gen. Patton was right with his views towards the USSR at the end of WWII.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Secondly Ukraine did exist prior to the soviet union as part of the Ottoman empire.

You see, your problem is that your knowledge of what is Ukraine and the history of Ukraine is somewhat lacking.
You are sitting far away on the other continent and want to police things in my backyard.

As for Kaliningrad, I'm inviting green polite Germans to visit if they dare.