If there is no Afterlife...

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
If we are to assume that the probability of an Afterlife is very slim, what motivates us to continue living? Think about it carefully. All the challenges and obstacles we overcome, all the relationships we develop, all the time invested in growing, nurturing and adapting throughout our lives would be for nothing. Who in their right mind would want to endure the stresses and trials of life if there was no chance of a life after this one?

I don't know if there's an afterlife or not. But I LOVE life! The pure love of waking up every day and facing the love of my husband and my dogs, the weather, the taste of food, the learning and growing... I don't think it gets much better than this.

I do not buy the idea that we need to have "meaning" and "a purpose" to our lives. Life just IS. The only "point" is to live it. It's a gift (from someone? I don't know, nor do I care). It's beautiful, wondrous and magical.

Am I in my right mind? To me, I am, and if others have a different opinion, that's fine. I live in the present as much as I can and strongly believe in doing the very best with what I have, keeping a positive attitude and progressing along whatever path is before me.

Whether or not there's an afterlife is irrelevant to me. Because I'm here now and that's all I have.

originally posted by: SystemResistor
a reply to: Dark Ghost

Would you find it logical to make every attempt possible to extend your life, and would you consider it illogical to assume that death is a certainty, regardless of the chances that are in favour, there must always be at least, very slim, chances against.

I think that our world religions have stymied our progress in extending human life. All their false moral and ethical arguments through the years have slowed or even stopped science from creating life extending technologies. It's power to do so is fading but not fast enough to extend my life to the degree it might have been if science had not been stomped out though history due to belief in mythical beings and after life.

Almost all religions do one thing and that is promise continued existence. People are starting to realize that if they want to continue or extend their individual existence then we are going to have to figure out how to do so rather than rely on invisible silent supreme beings that our ancient ancestors made up.

There is an afterlife. This is just a holographic school, that some sink to in frequency, but don't have to.

I believe fully that "something" exists after life - I have had one or two very REAL experiences with the "super-natural", including one which conclusively proved, to me any way, that something which had very "human" attributes, such as speach, was involved.

Be that as it may, I would like to address the reason why, in life on Earth, just about everything "eats" something else. It is nothing more than efficiency. There is only ONE source of external energy available for use on this planet - irrespective of what any "free energy" buffoons may think - and that is the sun. The amount of sunlight which falls on any square yard, in any given area, of this planet, is ALL the energy there is. Whether that energy is used to evaporate water and turn it into rain which flows down rivers, or whether vegetation turns it into matter, which when broken down releases it for another life-form to use, is immaterial - sunlight is ALL there is.

The reason why ALL life is so inter-dependant, is because the maximum efficiency is obtained by passing converted sunlight over and over again to different life-forms for thier use, until that energy is finally embedded into the most toxic material to Nature - hydro-carbons - and is buried deep below ground where the hydro-carbons can do no damage to life. Or so Nature thought, then modified humans came along, but that's another thread.

So there you have it, the limited available sunlight is used most efficiently by Nature passing it on over and over again to other life-forms, by one consuming the next - that is why life "eats" each other, no other reason.

pass the genes onto the next generation meaningless mechanical meat bag!
In doing so, enjoy what pleasures you can in your meaningless existence.
Meaning is a thing that can be created in accordance with reality, though people very rarely takes existence and nature truly into account when creating this sense of meaning.

The illusion of meaning seems necessary for populations on the whole, most individuals are neither clever enough or brave enough to swim in the true depth of the abyssal existence that is reality, that is being in your meat vehicle with the bright and lively mind and good will which the actually engaged in the world create through their being.

To have a bright being, mind, intellect, emotion, to express goodwill toward existence, One has to be a little stoic, but to still dance in spirit, to be able to give birth to a self revolving universe that is your first person ontological perspective of its own existence.

The truly 'enlightened' for lack of a better term, Are the bright suns in the meaningless spread of existence. All suns see only darkness, but those around them reflect their light. The meaninglessness of existence is the darkness of this psychological universe, but the light produced by the enlightened person who recognizes this fact yet continues in life with good will and grace toward his existence and others is a personal prize which few will ever recognize.

Using these traditional systems of meaning, the OLD ones, of honoring kin, of honoring Place and Memory, and the personifications of nature which honor the earth are absolutely 'healthy' psychological stances.

The 'new fad' in human culture and religion and metaphysics over the past 2500 years creatures who live with these people. These systems forge meaning in a manner that humanity becomes the center of the universe, that man is the measure of all things. What we 'see' cannot be the truth, because we feel so special compared to the other beings on our planet, we feel our higher selves are gods deep down, but cant admit it, so we propose a philosophical system layered on the 'actual' world, a BETTER world, a MAGIC world where the physical is cursed inherently and the PURE world is of spirit.

This is an evil belief which cant be put away quickly enough

a reply to: Dark Ghost

With this thought, are you considering the life you can leave behind? Living for others leaves behind the goodness you generate for your family as you depart this life. Love is a good reason to stay alive and fight for those in your care. Living for self leads to the defeat you are espousing here in this thread. Essentially, if you cannot live forever, then what's the point? You get nothing for your trouble.

What is the mark of the animal nature? What does a beast do? Have you ever observed a dog that is not domesticated? They take and have no control over their actions. On the other hand, a dog that has been heeled and trained will obey a master. What separates us from the animals? Intellect. We know that our actions matter to a host of other creatures. Our death is not nearly as significant as the life we live in service to the greater good of those we leave behind.

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

Mark this! 18 items marking selfishness, or the animal nature. Those marked deprive themselves of eternal life. Why? The lessons learned here must be carried forward to the next existence. Overcoming the beast is the point.

What will mark that life lived at death? What we did for others and not ourselves. Objectivism is Ayn Rand. Altruism is Jesus Christ. Which do you suspect leads to eternal life?

Is it worth the effort?

18 markers is 6+6+6

I have the same animal to overcome. So do we all.

I do apologise for the thread drift above - just needed to get it out.

Yes, "survival" is obviously instinctive, otherwise life would happily just immediately extinct itself, but there doesn't appear to be in Nature any sort of "belief" in an after-life. Lemmings for instance, regularly overcome that instinct for survival when required for population control, as do many other species, so am not sure quite how strong that instinct is. I even wonder if it is an instinct for survival, or just a fear of pain? Perhaps other animals run from predators purely due to not wishing to experience pain, as opposed to an extreme desire to "stay alive"?

Maybe it's only humans who have this notion of staying alive for as long as possible at all costs, irrespective of the consequences?

Could this be a throwback to religion? The absolute fear of "eternal" suffering? The new god-virus religions have left thier mark on every human on the planet - whether one believes themselves to be religious or not, the evidence of what the religions teach is visible in the attitude of every human.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I don't think the ego as we know it survives death, but I do think there is an extradimensional part of ourselves that is immortal that will go on to either live another life or to ascend to a higher state of existence (well, I think that part of ourselves is already up there, so it isn't really an ascension so much as it is a resumption). I don't think it will necessary remain a discrete unit of individuality, but might meld back into whatever mist all of our awareness stems out from kind of like water vapor going up into a cloud only to be rained out again, but I do think there is an element of us that lives on.

Either way, there's no use worrying about death. Death is inevitable and is happening to all of us. From the moment of our conception, cells begin to perish and it is only through constant replacement of dying cells that we remain alive. The most any of us can do is to live our lives to the fullest while we are alive. Worry impedes our ability to do that.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

There are a good number of people who just don't think that far ahead. Bear with me, this is going somewhere.

Do you remember when you were a child of about 3 or 4? You got along with other children your age and they got along with you. Regardless of skin color or background, you all got along. As you got older, the influence of your parents and their parents started causing divides among you and your peers. Their viewpoints and prejudices started to influence you and your peers until there started to be "cliques", groups of like-minded individuals, much in the same way that there were cliques among all of the parents when they were younger.

That was the start of your indoctrination into society and that is why you now function so well in it. You recognize there are different groups of people based on skin colors, geography and various ideals and you spend a good deal of your life trying to figure out the best way for you all to get along. Couple that with the full time jobs of raising your own children and paying your bills, and you now have a life that is too full for you to be bothered with such peripheral thoughts as "What happens to me when all this is over?" You're too busy living the life that was chosen for you to be concerned about your death.

So to repeat, there are many people who don't think that far ahead because................they just don't have the time. Somewhere early on in life their parents, through no fault of their own, threw them into this mix we call modern life and they became subjugated to it. They're prisoners in a society they help keep afloat. Prisoners of their own device, and it seems as though the best they could do to help offset that living hell was to make religions and buildings to house them in and then commission a chosen few to tell them what the afterlife is all about one day out of the week.

Nowhere in any of this were we taught to think for ourselves. Instead of taking advice from our elders in order to form our own opinions about things, we were told to keep doing and thinking like the generations before us. Because of this stifling, restrictive and counterproductive way of life that most people seem to be in, there is little to no chance that they will ever take the time to learn what the most probable afterlife scenario is. On the weekends they may take whatever it is that relaxes them and they may have some deep conversations about the topic, but chances are good that it will never be number one on anyone's priority list. (For those of you who are content with that way of life.....that's good. For those of you who are not........there's a lot of learning to be done.)

They're too busy running a race that has a finish line they can't recognize. They'll only know what it looks like when they get there. Don't get me wrong though, I think more people are waking up to the fact that all of what I just said is bull***t and that it doesn't have to be this way. Personally, I like knowing where I'm going. I drive for a living and that helps that cause a great deal. I look at life the same way. I'm going to enjoy the journey while it's mine to enjoy, and part of that comes from knowing where the destination is.

There's something about knowing where you're going to finish that helps in how you're going to finish.

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

Steven Wright

a reply to: Dark Ghost

nice post. Very representative of the human weakness. You absolutely need grander reasons for your existence besides those you personally create? Each time i read a post like this its like the same old joke. Granted you will experience hell when your time comes cause even if "there is an afterlife", it aint just as easy to fathom as you think - or anyone - for that matter.

But you are right in that almost all humans blindly believe in whatever work best for them in order to avoid thinking deeper on the afterdeath. They just stupidly choose a random belief that make them comfortable in the moment be it new age or religion and they dont dig deeper because "when you stare into the abyss, it stares back right at ya". MOst are uncomfortable with the unknown to the point they rather believe in a dumb fairy tale than really trying to grasp the true reality of it.

And you got the wrong mindset there dude. You can see hell when there is heaven and heaven when there is hell with the right/wrong mindset and perspectives. What i mean to say is, you shouldnt focus on the wrong things.. and certainly not with the wrong mindset, moreover.

Dont you know the quote "as Above so below"? It is one of the most underrated quote i have ever seen because its meaning goes way ahead of whatever definitions people may have had for it. The afterlife's most important attribute, imho, is that it still follows the law of survival. It is selective. What is "strong" enough may go further, what is too weak go back to the pool. If you want an example of right mindset... instead of being like "wtf why do i have to suffer a whole #ty life for naught?" You should persevere even more because the primary goal of life is to exploit your free will the best you can. Those that give up have no one bit of a chance to survive. Same goes for those that are centered on a materialistic life. If the mind doesnt evolve along with the body and experiences, then you can safely say that there is no "next" for this kind. And how funny, this very kind represents a vast majority of humankind. Nothing is easy oh no.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

This belief in a person soul and a personal afterlife
is a relatively recent development for the human
race.

The human race was much happier, and much less
destructive before this concept was developed.

Now --- yes, spirituality has been part of the human
race almost since the very beginning.

And while it was wrong then, as it is now, it was not
'toxic' like it is now.

Nothing causes more suffering in this world than
religion, spirituality and other ions, isms and alities.

These things don't ease suffering, they cause it.

And for the record, no I'm not an atheist (per se)
nor am I anti-spiritual or anything like that..

I'm just against all the garbage in this world
that pretends to be 'good' which is actually
designed to control people and get them to
give their money to the persons who are in
the 1%.

Kev

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I look at it this way.

If I reincarnate I won't be disappointed.

If there is an "after life" I won't be disappointed.

If there isn't anything at all I won't be disappointed.

There really isn't a way you could lose.

My hope is that when I die I will be free to travel the universe(s) without physical impediment.

a reply to: Dark Ghost


The belief in an afterlife probably predates our species, and most assuredly originates from sleep and dream imagery. We can see people that have died in dreams. We look like we are dead when we are asleep. When you die, you are in a "sleep" forever, with everyone that has died. It's also where the idea of an underworld comes from, since nightmares tend to happen after stress events, and most stress events tend to be associated with negativity, i.e. If you are leading a good, you will have good dreams. If you lead a bad life, your dreams take on a darker tone. Very basic, I know, but that is generally the idea.

Having said that, people still believe in an afterlife because superstition is a nasty mistress. Upwards of half a million years of believing in an afterlife isn't going to go away in what amounts to a blink of an eye, as we start to grasp the objective universe and push away from subjective experience to explain the world.

I don't understand why believers in an afterlife aren't killing themselves to attain their rewards. If there is an afterlife, I would imagine that it would be a natural function, and would not be subject to arbitrary factors like ethics or mortality. Was it something that evolved in humans? If so, how did it evolve if having an afterlife doesn't have any noticeable effect on procreation?

To answer the question for me, personally, curiosity keeps me interested in life. Enjoying time spent with family or in pursuits of knowledge. Some, less curious individuals probably do believe in an afterlife because it is easier than trying to imagine that death is the end. My resolve is tested every time I lose someone.

The cruelest thing anyone has ever said to me is that my loved ones are watching down over me. That they have somehow survived cancer and are waiting for me to join them in some magical sky palace. Don't think for a moment that I wouldn't desire that to be true. That I don't wish for that to be true. But, alas, I don't -believe- it to be true.

A good question might also be, if life sucks, and there is immortality, bliss and peace after death, why do we not just kill ourselves?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

DG: "If we are to assume that the probability of an Afterlife is very slim, what motivates us to continue living? Think about it carefully. All the challenges and obstacles we overcome, all the relationships we develop, all the time invested in growing, nurturing and adapting throughout our lives would be for nothing. Who in their right mind would want to endure the stresses and trials of life if there was no chance of a life after this one?"

That is strange reasoning. I don't think it holds.

Most people are motivated into action not by philosophical views but by their feelings. Mmm hungry.. need food .. Mmm horny .. sex with girl .. oh baby ... cute.. protect my baby ..cold .. need house etc.. Cultural/religious views play a role but are secondary to feelings.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
A good question might also be, if life sucks, and there is immortality, bliss and peace after death, why do we not just kill ourselves?

Because that's a sin...

Truly, when it comes down to it... Life, consciousness, living is really all we have. We can buy a new car or laptop or what have you, but in the end it's just you and that is scary as Hell... It's all we have... moments, and we all want one more.

The inquisitive nature of people leads me to believe that we are here as observers, kind of to prove it even happened. We are here to be amazed, and document how it all works. We are the reason for reason.

No.

What motivates us to keep on living is very simple. The vast majority of us are social creatures that are strongly inclined by our genetic programming to fight for survival and to procreate. It is why human beings are designed with innate optimism, even when hope seems futile. It's not surprising that so many humans are convinced when they die, everything will be streets of gold and peachy keen with no worries anymore. Whatever evolution has in store for us beyond survival and reproduction, e.g. getting off the planet, is pure speculation.

The weak may think, believe, and do as they wish.

a reply to: Klassified

So a few hail Marie's, and call on the name of the lord to be saved. Might work. Who's willing to try it out?

Great thread and OP.

I do believe there is an afterlife. Not really a lot of scientific evidence for it, but we know so little about life and the universe, for as advanced as we like to think we are. What will we know in 100 years from now. Mind boggling. I realize there is psychological reasons to believe in the afterlife. It makes it easier to accept death if we know death isn't permanent, for one.

If no afterlife or no reincarnation then life does become purposeless. All that is left is to make life as pleasurable as possible and to leave some sort of legacy for our children and those that come after us. We are reduced to insects in a way, our only goal is to keep the human race going. We do a bad job of that. Intelligent insects would be putting al ltheir efforts into multiple homes in multiple planets.

But, I do believe. In my opinion, it seems probable that there is an afterlife. This opinion is based on hundreds of books, real life experiences and so on. I could be wrong of course.