DWP orders man to work without pay for company that let him go

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: bates

This country has a minimum wage which is bad enough. So by that logic if the guy works he like anyone else is entitled to be paid, nuff said.

I would be sticking in a invoice for hours worked every week. once my time was up i would be consulting a lawyer as there are laws in place regarding the minimum wage.....In fact, i would be looking for a bit of wood that shouldn't have been there. Yhen consulting a Lawyer. That would chap the nonsense out their heads...a day in court, a fine and a increase in insurance premiums.

originally posted by: BMorris

originally posted by: bates
a reply to: dawnstar

Excellent post sir.

Also, I've noticed a few people using the old "they're not working for free, they get other benefits whilst they're doing it" and then adding up all the things like housing benefits and what not.

Because its the truth. However, despite being the truth, they are in no way implying that its the right thing to do.

Just because something is the truth doesn't necessarily mean that is is the morally right thing to do.

They are NOT working for free, they are being made to work for their benefits.

If that is a right or wrong thing to be forcing them to do, is for an entirely other discussion.

People are being forced to work for free in order to receive the state benefits that they are entitled to anyway.

No one is getting paid for the work they are forced to do in order to remain claiming the UNEMPLOYMENT benefit known as JSA (job seekers allowance) without sanction.

To suggest they are is completely wrong and quite frankly rather offensive to those who have been forced into these unpaid work positions.

If people were getting paid there would be no one moaning about it.

Do you consider the slaves of the past who got bed and board to have been paid?

The person in question whom this thread is about was only getting the minimum wage at the recycle plant anyway, do you think he'd be wasting his days stood about with signs and an empty stomach if he was still going to be getting paid?

If you really consider these people to be receiving payment for their work you need to report these matters to someone (I have no idea who) as it would be a very very very serious case of fraud on a scale which has never been seen before.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Think of the amount of people of similar circumstance that this also happens to yet goes unreported? Surprisingly enough they turn to petty crime to supplement the missing income.

Also how the hell can you suspend 2/3 of a person's benefits when they only provide the bare minimum to live? That in itself defies logic.

Poor Man, I really hope his situation improves!

a reply to: batesthe sad reason behind it all is too damn much bureaucracy. they sacked him from the job now the unemployment people want him to go back and work it for free. in america we would tell them exactly what to do with themselves.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: bates
On the face of it yes, it seems outrageous, but I wonder what his overall situation is...just playing Devils advocate:

What if he gets say £100 per week in Housing Benefit, plus £15 per week Council Tax Benefit, then £72 per week Job Seekers Allowance while at the 'work placement', that's £187 per week take home. Minimum wage 37 hours will take home £220 per week so really the guy would be working for £0.89 per hour less than minimum wage.

That is a truer picture of the situation in my opinion. I do not agree that someone should work for less than minimum wage and it is not something I would wish for myself...but it is not as dramatic as working for nothing.

But the company he is being told to go and work for is not paying for his Labour.... so your post is bollocks.
If the Council wanted him to work for them or do work in the community, that would be one thing (although still not acceptable IMO) but working for a private business without pay.... Fook that!!

A fair days work for a fair days pay... simple.

originally posted by: blupblup
your post is bollocks

Keep your knickers on fella, my post was explaining that he isn't 'working for nothing' with the suggested benefit rates I included. He would be working for £5.61 per hour, £0.89 less per hour than minimum wage.
The 'employer' in a sense is the UK govt/DWP forcing him into a placement to do it to get his benefits.
I believe it is a corrupt system which benefits businesses, and Ieven stated that I do not support anyone working for less than minimum wage, but I equally do not support the £5.13 per hour minimum wage for 18-20 year olds in a job that takes half an hour to learn.
This guys benefits would work out more than a 20 year old is expected to earn on minimum wage. It is unpleasant of course but not 'working for nothing' ...drama queen much?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: blupblup
your post is bollocks

Keep your knickers on fella, my post was explaining that he isn't 'working for nothing' with the suggested benefit rates I included. He would be working for £5.61 per hour, £0.89 less per hour than minimum wage.
The 'employer' in a sense is the UK govt/DWP forcing him into a placement to do it to get his benefits.
I believe it is a corrupt system which benefits businesses, and Ieven stated that I do not support anyone working for less than minimum wage, but I equally do not support the £5.13 per hour minimum wage for 18-20 year olds in a job that takes half an hour to learn.
This guys benefits would work out more than a 20 year old is expected to earn on minimum wage. It is unpleasant of course but not 'working for nothing' ...drama queen much?

I'm calm... I just like to swear
Yeah I know what you were saying but however you dice it up, it's still BS that he's being forced to do it or lose his benefits.
He gets literally nothing out of it except embarrassment and crap from his old bosses colleagues and he does the same job with no pay... no pay from his place of work I mean.... he receives benefits which are contributions based so he's entitled to them either way, he paid into the system and now he's fallen on hard times, he should get the benefits.

I know you're not supporting it, merely playing devil's advocate... but bollocks is still bollocks.

a reply to: blupblup
Haha, fair enough
I do have compassion for the guy though, and I hope this coerced below minimum wage work scheme will be closer to being abolished with the efforts he is making to publicise it.

a reply to: Anneeyes he is getting piss poor state money not what he would have been getting if the company hadnt ended his service with them which means they can work the crap out of him and pay him no money so essential they are getting free labor the other tax payers are footing the bill

originally posted by: bastion

You guys set up a really nice system to help people genuinely in need, and then you opened the floodgates to people who are quite happy to sh!t all over that system whilst outbreeding you WITH YOUR OWN MONEY collected via benefits....

Nonsense, a study released today shows immigrants contribute £20Bn to the UK economy.

freshnews-uk.com...

Try actually reading that study there buddy! EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS, contributed more than they collected.

Contrary to the popular view that European immigrants are a burden to UK taxpayers, a new study by University College London has found that people arriving from the EU contributed £20 billion to the British economy between 2000 and 2011. The study also found that immigrants from the so-called new Europe – the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 including...

The immigrants sh!tting all over the UK system are the "Jihad seekers allowance" crowd.

You know the ones. They have zero desire to ever be British, they loathe everything about British culture and only wish to infiltrate, dominate, decimate and appropriate all of the UK for themselves. Honour killings, stoning women, banning alcohol....

The problem is, why leave Pakistan, Iran, Syria etc if they want to just turn the UK into the very places they FLED ????

I mean wouldn't it be easier to build Tower Bridge, Big Ben and the Gurken in Damascus and then have the goddamn Sharia "burn-it-all-to-the-ground" party there; instead of subjecting us Europeans to their barbarism....

Oh that's right, us Europeans are completely gutless and will just lay down and take it because our ancestors were such horrible awful people and persecuted everyone and we should all feel guilty forever and ever and ever.......

Sorry but you won't find me lining up to take my weekly dose of WHITE GUILT.

The people who want to burn the west down to dust can honestly F*CK RIGHT OFF.

a reply to: boohoo

Thank you boohoo. I found your contribution especially informative.

Just one question: suppose the working classes did rebel against the owners of capital by going on a reproduction strike - wouldn't said owners of capital simply arrange more immigration of desperate types from the developing world who would be more than willing to reproduce? And isn't this is what is already happening?

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Mmmm... The people from 2 of those places you mention, Iran and Syria, are probably more "western" than perhaps the media like to make out. Syria was a secular country, with almost none of the Muslim Fundamentalism we see today, where Christians, Muslims and even Jews were free to adhere openly to their own religions, and were protected in doing so. It was the west that sent in the heavily armed Jihadis, along with their Saudi chums to overthrow Assad.

As for Iran, yes, there are still some areas that adhere to a more stringent following of Islamic law, but for the most part many in Iran are more "western" than we are led to believe by the hysterical media.

If you want to see real barbarism, look no further than Saudi Arabia. The press made a real big deal over ISIS lopping off the heads of 3 western prisoners, but in the same time period, SA lopped off the heads of 75 criminals and prisoners. They then topped it off (forgive the pun) by announcing the death sentence on a dissident by beheading, then crucifying his headless corpse in public as a warning to others. Yet, we are not invading them, or condemning them and their tea towel wearing goat molesting royals (there are a lot of them) get to come and go as they please.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the government(s), in allowing immigration from harder line Islamic states, and further allowing those coming here to squeeze the taxpayer for benefits most native whites could only dream of, is deliberately meant to give the people stuff to focus their anger on. A distraction set up deliberately and to dilute nationality. Whilst there are many immigrants who do intermarry and assimilate, there are many who do not and try to have the rest of us change to suit their cultural or religious needs or demands. Sharia, Talmudic or any other religious law should be stamped out in the UK. Abide by British law or go elsewhere! I know, I am a racist, I'll probably go vote for UKIP too!

a reply to: bates

This country sickens me!

What kind of nation has 59 year old "Electronics specialists"(Presumably an Electronic and Electrical Engineer) that are out of work? Sounds like the dude has paid his dues all his life and has fallen on hard times. Or to be more precise, has had hard times fallen upon him.

Hopefully someone out there will recognise this Man's plight and offer him a rather more appropriate form of gainful employment with a proper wage. The Man is 60 next year, hardly on the scrap heap just yet, and most lightly, given his age a fountain of knowledge pertaining to his skillset.

originally posted by: Golden Rule
Just one question: suppose the working classes did rebel against the owners of capital by going on a reproduction strike - wouldn't said owners of capital simply arrange more immigration of desperate types from the developing world who would be more than willing to reproduce? And isn't this is what is already happening?

Thats why I said "violent", as abhorrent as it seems, its the only way to keep immigrants from willingly coming here and undercutting the wages of citizens. The way it stands now, companies recruit immigrants to come in and work for less and in turn the immigrants get to live under relatively safe conditions, while they work.

Change in policy can only occur today, IF, these foreign workers are treated the same way as workers whom "crossed picket" lines during the depression. Sadly, that could mean violence, until these foreign workers on visas understand that stealing wages from Americans is not welcome by the local population and directly results in an unsafe environment in which to earn said wages. Same goes for upper management, when their personal cars drive up to the company parking lot, no holds barred, roughing ups should be happening.

Worker today can learn a lot from those whom dealt with this same issue during the depression. I think the 1933 movie, "Heroes for Sale" perfectly sums up the situation we are in today. Things can't change until workers start acting like the ones portrayed in this film. We are at the end of our rope, NO MORE BEGGING, NO MORE INVESTIGATING AND NO MORE PUBLIC POLICY BUILDING. Angry mobs should be forming in front of corporate offices across the country and I don't mean "Occupy Wallstreet" style with the proper "permits" and "free speech" zones. The events during the depression provides all the working models we need today, not 1960's era sit-ins.

a reply to: boohoo

"Angry mobs should be forming in front of corporate offices across the country "

And once we destroy the society that our ancestors worked so hard to create through anarchy, what then? Chances are the refugees and political dissidents within our ranks would simply become more of a problem. There is no easy answer regarding UK immigration short of stopping it all together until such time as we can accommodate the population we already have. Same with any and all foreign aid, if we cannot pay for our own expenditures why should we be giving away aid that could help ourselves? After all charity begins at home!

originally posted by: andy06shake
And once we destroy the society that our ancestors worked so hard to create through anarchy, what then? Chances are the refugees and political dissidents within our ranks would simply become more of a problem. There is no easy answer regarding UK immigration short of stopping it all together until such time as we can accommodate the population we already have. Same with any and all foreign aid, if we cannot pay for our own expenditures why should we be giving away aid that could help ourselves? After all charity begins at home!

You didn't understand my post.

I NEVER SAID destroy,

I NEVER SAID anarchy,

I DID SAY "rough up" those causing the most damage to the lower classes, ON AN INDIVIDUAL SCALE. Grabbing a CEO out of his car in the parking lot, IS NOT, the same thing as burning the office building to the ground. Treating an H1B visa worker as a "picket line crosser", IS NOT, the same thing as yelling a racial slur at them in the office.

This strategy WORKED during the Depression, hence my reference to the 1933 movie "Heroes for Sale".

Have you even watched this movie? The reference is an important aspect too understanding what I have suggested.

a reply to: boohoo

No i have never had the privilege to view the 1933 movie "Heroes for Sale", ile possibly give it a try through.

The thing with people who "rough up" others or "angry mobs" is even if they have the best of intentions they are only as intelligent as there stupidest member who's generally the loudest. Also angry mobs seldom achieved their specific goals. Down that road lies anarchy im afraid.

originally posted by: andy06shake
The thing with people who "rough up" others or "angry mobs" is even if they have the best of intentions they are only as intelligent as there stupidest member who's generally the loudest. Also angry mobs seldom achieved their specific goals. Down that road lies anarchy im afraid.

The thing many are forgetting is these tactics worked during the Depression. All of the "civilized methods" have gotten us nothing so far. Where do you expect us to be in another 10 years using the current "civilized methods"?

"Roughing Up", specific people, is all we have left. We are in a corner. If we had "choices" as you suggest "Occupy Wall street" would have been successful and we'd still be seeing continued public efforts. We don't, so we have to assume it was not a success in any measurable way.

originally posted by: Freeborn
Thatcher successfully screwed the unions over.
The first part of her grand strategy was to use MSM to demonise the unions.
She then manipulated events to validate that demonization and introduced legislation that greatly reduced their power or influence.
As a result we have seen the steady decline in workers rights and their standard of living.

We now have Cameron - who idolises Thatcher - using the same process to demonise the most needy and vulnerable in our society.

All part of the move backwards to a Victorianesque society.

This is my point, why are people still "asking permission" or trying to "legislate" what they want. Stop asking!

A company lays everyone off and opens an office in Mumbai, go to the CEO's house and make him pay for the lost wages, in "spirit". He certainly has the right to do what he wants with his business, but its also the communities right to extract a penalty for making such a decision. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Its should be simple, move jobs away, loose your "safe environment", in which you reside. No one should assume they will be safe, if they economically devastate the communities that their businesses reside in. Detroit being a prime example, those guys should be looking over their shoulder 24/7.

a reply to: boohoo

Where did i ever suggest we have choices or ever mention Occupy Wall street? Individual freedoms are nothing more than a fallacy. I'm not suggesting everything is preordained but these days the minority are most definitely wagging the dog's tail. And if roughing up specific people is all we have left then humanity is pretty much doomed to repeat Nazi Germanys mistakes because roughing up specific groups is how that whole mess began.

"Where do you expect us to be in another 10 years using the current "civilized methods"?"

I expect us to be living in an Orwellian technocracy, just like we already are and have been for some time im afraid.

originally posted by: andy06shake
And if roughing up specific people is all we have left then humanity is pretty much doomed to repeat Nazi Germanys mistakes because roughing up specific groups is how that whole mess began.

Ever heard of the "Peasants Revolt"?

So you are telling us that those frustrated people were nothing more than "Proto-Nazis"?

The Peasants Revolt, of 1381, was triggered by the "Statute of Labourers 1351".

The sustained wage growth for non-land owing, wage-laborers was rising so quickly that the English parliament, a few decades post the Black-Death, under King Edward III, introduced the "Statute of Labourers 1351". It was used by the "Owners of Capital", as an artificial means to drive down the wages of non-land owning peasants. Despite market conditions signalling the need for increased wages.

avalon.law.yale.edu...

The Statute of Laborers; 1351 ("Statutes of the Realm," vol. i. p. 307.)

Explanation of Shay's Rebellion according to andy06shake? Simple Proto-Nazi's, case closed.

I think not!!!