The Reason for the Economic Decline of America

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Willtell

The rich already pay the majority of the taxes... How much more do you suggest they pay? What would you define as a rich person?

How about proportional to their share of wealth? It's a self correcting system. When the top 0.1% own 90% of the countries wealth they pay 90% of the taxes. When the bottom 50% are doing well and own 15%, they pay 15% of the taxes.

a reply to: Aazadan

That's not taxes, that's wealth redistribution which is a communist form of taxation.

You do realize the top % of wealthy are responsible for 90% of innovation correct? Not all rich people are walstreet hucksters...

And the bottom 50% (in the USA) pay no taxes....

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Aazadan

That's not taxes, that's wealth redistribution which is a communist form of taxation.

You do realize the top % of wealthy are responsible for 90% of innovation correct? Not all rich people are walstreet hucksters...

And the bottom 50% (in the USA) pay no taxes....

So you're for the opposite? The richer you are, the less you pay in taxes? Walk that argument backwards and you're saying the poorest in society should also be paying the highest taxes (that's how it is now). Is that the system you want? What percentage of their income should the poor be paying in taxes? What percentage should the rich be paying? How about those in the middle?

As far as those on the bottom paying no taxes goes, I'm in a 1% myself. The bottom 1%. Actually I'm somewhere around 0.3% (~8400/year income). I pay sales taxes, gas taxes, federal taxes, state taxes, city taxes, property taxes, and utility taxes. Should I pay more? Your argument seems to be that I should. How should I go about earning this money to pay those taxes? I have no option to degrade my lifestyle in order to pay more, if I cut back any further on food I will die and pay no taxes. I cannot go homeless and put the would be rent towards taxes because it is illegal... how exactly do you propose that I earn this additional income since I should be paying the most.

Now, I'm not against paying more taxes, infact it's just the opposite... I would relish the opportunity to earn more money and be able to give back to the country that has created the policies that let businesses thrive and have me be successful. If you were to tax at a flat rate of $8400/year, you would take 100% of my income, the issues created from that aside the US only has a tax base of about 100 million people. That means a maximum tax revenue of 840 billion (this is roughly 20% of the current budget). Do you not see the issues created by such a small amount of tax revenue? You would have to cut defense spending by 25%, and completely cut everything else from roads, to education in order to meet that revenue cost without a deficit. If you hope to pay off the debt you would need to make even deeper cuts.

Thus, a system where I pay equal taxes to you is impossible the financial realities do not allow for it unless you grant the point that we need to shrink wealth inequality. Since I assume you do not want to do that, you must also admit that the wealthier someone is, the more they need to pay in taxes. If that is what needs to be done, why do we simply not make it proportional to the share of wealth one owns? If a group becomes too exclusive and too wealthy (such as the top 0.1% owning 90% of the wealth) the taxes will make it more equitable. SImilarly, if wealth inequality shrinks by too much the poor will tax themselves back into being poor. It's a self correcting system.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Aazadan

That's not taxes, that's wealth redistribution which is a communist form of taxation.

You do realize the top % of wealthy are responsible for 90% of innovation correct? Not all rich people are walstreet hucksters...

And the bottom 50% (in the USA) pay no taxes....

Just where do you think the rich get their workers and flunkies from? The society that educates them, raises and nurtures them, feeds them and eventually becomes a conduit for the rich to hire them and many others combine to make these rich people rich… and I might add--- OFF SOCIETY.

THEY DON’T GET RICH ON AN ISLAND ALL BY THEMSELES!
IT’S the society( we all built and contribute to) they live in that allows them the business and commercial opportunity to this massive wealth.

THEY OWE SOCITY A FAIR SHARE OF THAT WEALTH AS TAXES!

a reply to: Willtell

Right, and what is a fair share? Do you really believe a 90% tax is a fair share??

The rich pay about a 36% effective tax rate (and many pay an additional 15% capital gains tax) compared to a 9-12% effective tax rate for the middle class and a 0-7% for lower income.

Again, the top earners pay the majority of thetaxes in the US. Are you saying that the most isn't a fair share?

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Willtell

Right, and what is a fair share? Do you really believe a 90% tax is a fair share??

The rich pay about a 36% effective tax rate (and many pay an additional 15% capital gains tax) compared to a 9-12% effective tax rate for the middle class and a 0-7% for lower income.

Again, the top earners pay the majority of thetaxes in the US. Are you saying that the most isn't a fair share?

90% is on the right side of a Laffer Curve so no. You completely misunderstood what I said too. I said that if a group owns 90% of the wealth, that group pays 90% of the taxes. I didn't say "OMG 90% TAX RATE THE RICH". If the individual in your example owned 90% of the wealth, that person should pay 90% of the taxes but that doesn't necessarily mean the person is paying a 90% tax rate.

originally posted by: xuenchen
If the 90% tax rate was so effective, where did the "rich" get the money to "fight back"?

What went wrong?

They didn't invest or sat on their money, if you are not making money then you don't pay taxes. If rich money didn't invest then who did? Why the middle class and the investment of tax dollars did! Why is that any different rich money or middle class money? Well middle class investment creates more jobs, more companies, more specializations to curb competition etc. An example of this is the german Mittelstand, which worked as an economic model before and after the war. Rich money created mergers and monopolies and stagnating innovation. ;D

a reply to: Aazadan

Right Now the top 40% of earners pay ALL the taxes...

Source

So you are implying they should pay more than ALL?

I think people who make these statements aren't even remotely aware of who pays what taxes in the US.

The only fair tax is a tax where everyone pays the same rate.

a reply to: Willtell

Your rationale for the reason of economic is a good reason for the economic policies that have been undertaken, but not the real reason for economic decline. The underlying true reason is finite resources. The planet is basically being overused by humans because 1.)there are too many of us. 2.) we are destroying the landbase which supports us. Economies are ARTIFICIAL hence what is REAL trumps what the ARTIFCIAL's wants/needs/likes etc every time without exception.

a reply to: Willtell

You are my internet hero for the day.

SF

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Willtell

Right, and what is a fair share? Do you really believe a 90% tax is a fair share??

The rich pay about a 36% effective tax rate (and many pay an additional 15% capital gains tax) compared to a 9-12% effective tax rate for the middle class and a 0-7% for lower income.

Again, the top earners pay the majority of thetaxes in the US. Are you saying that the most isn't a fair share?

The 90 percent kicks in after a few million dollars its not all 90 percent of their total take home.

Im saying it might be more such as before the Reagan huge cuts.

But I am not crying and wasting my emotions for the well off.
Good for them I'm glad for their success but I don’t worry about them... they eat fine

I worry about the children starving in America

I grieve and worry about them not rich people

a reply to: th3dudeabides

Then if that’s the case then the greedy rich hogging the resources is not the solution to this.

That means these resources should all the more be parceled out fairly

a reply to: Willtell

Right, and when you've taken the innovators money and redistributed it, what money will they have to innovate? I suppose they'll just innovate for free? Or perhaps you think all science and advancement should be funded and provided by the government?

Gosh Darn that Tesla for giving us an amazing car of the future with his riches!!! Gosh Darn that Bill Gates for giving us the modern PC!!! I could go on, but none of those people would have innovated if not for the fact they already had some money to fund their ventures or that they were funded by some evil rich person or corporation.

Even Facebook was started with money from a kid who had family money...

Bottom line, you have never even taken a basic, college level economics course, as you seem oblivious to what runs a working economy.

Even Millionaires Think The Rich Should Pay Higher Taxes

In the heated debate over inequality, the wealthy are usually portrayed as the cause rather than the solution. But CNBC's first-ever Millionaire Survey reveals that 51 percent of American millionaires believe inequality is a "major problem" for the U.S., and nearly two-thirds support higher taxes on the wealthy and a higher minimum wage as ways to narrow the wealth gap.

The Best Reason for the Very Rich to be Paying A LOT More in Taxes

Before getting into the best reason, here are some of the usual -- and always good -- reasons. First of all, For every dollar the richest 1% earned in 1980, they've added three more dollars. The poorest 90% have added ONE CENT. The richest million families have not worked three times (let alone 300 times) harder than the other 99 million families.

The richest 10% own 80% of the stock market, providing billions in "unearned income" that is taxed at less than half the rate of income earned through real work. The richest million families may have actually worked LESS than the other 99 million families. A number of individuals have had one-year incomes over a billion dollars, enough to pay the salaries of 25,000 teachers or health care workers or emergency responders. It's questionable whether a guy who makes a billion betting on a mortgage collapse is worth even one teacher or health care worker or emergency responder.

Next is the woeful state of tax collections on the people making most of the money. Mitt Romney pays 15%, Warren Buffett 17.4%. The richest 400 Americans, 16.6%. The whole top 1% (a million families) paid less than 23% in 2006. Article image

Average Americans pay more than that. Studies show that when state and local taxes, payroll taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and excise taxes are tallied up, low-income people can be paying a higher percentage of taxes than the rich, perhaps up to 40% of their incomes.

Whew. A lot of good reasons for the rich to be paying a lot more in taxes. But here's the BEST REASON. The super-rich like to believe their own initiative and creativity have been the primary drivers of growth in technology and science and business and medicine. Some innovative business leaders deserve credit for putting the pieces together on specific initiatives. But the pieces themselves were put together over many years by thousands of less conspicuous people. As Elizabeth Warren said, "There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody."

Consider just a simple communications device. The pieces were put together by a procession of chemists, physicists, chip designers, programmers, engineers, production-line workers, market analysts, testers, troubleshooters, etc., etc. They, in turn, couldn't have succeeded without another layer of people providing sustenance and medical support and security and administrative assistance and transportation and office maintenance for the technologists. ALL of them contributed to the final product.

The most fortunate among us have succeeded because all of America has supported them for 60 years. Yet they've somehow come to believe that they did it all on their own. Nothing could be further from the truth. They should be thanking all the people who contributed to their success. Thanking them by paying taxes.

No man is an island. The great resources of America are responsible for the wealth of the wealthy as well as their own work

They owe the society they profit off

Imagine if there wasn’t a great middle class. Where would they get their workers from

Or lower class
Who would mow their lawns or shine their shoes

I didn't read the entire thread, but did anyone mention how the policies of the Reagan admin. were magnified by the Clinton admin rescinding glass-steagall and setting the stock markets and banks free to do what they please?.

I don't think undocumented workers or welfare mommas or people who collect EBT or people who don't pay their bills , medical or otherwise have a whole lot to do with anything in comparison to the damage the banks and wall street have done and will keep doing without putting Glass-Steagall back in force in it's entirety, and chucking the notion of Trickle Down Economics in the dustbin where it should have been from the start.

There are plenty of non-issues placed out there to distract people from seeing the simple facts, a lot of the things and people that are blamed are really inconsequential. A lot of static making the picture unclear around here.

Awesome Willtell,
I read your title and thought if this says
anything besides the fact there has been a concerted corporate
effort to further deprive the poor and middle class, I would have passed right on by.
Thankfully you hit the nail square on the head.
It won't last long, people in general are pissed and well aware
where the blame lays.
The 5 Sam Walton kids have the same wealth as 80,000,000
of Americas poorest people.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
I didn't read the entire thread, but did anyone mention how the policies of the Reagan admin. were magnified by the Clinton admin rescinding glass-steagall and setting the stock markets and banks free to do what they please?.

I don't think undocumented workers or welfare mommas or people who collect EBT or people who don't pay their bills , medical or otherwise have a whole lot to do with anything in comparison to the damage the banks and wall street have done and will keep doing without putting Glass-Steagall back in force in it's entirety, and chucking the notion of Trickle Down Economics in the dustbin where it should have been from the start.

There are plenty of non-issues placed out there to distract people from seeing the simple facts, a lot of the things and people that are blamed are really inconsequential. A lot of static making the picture unclear around here.

Here is what I posted in the OP:

First: Get the trade policy back to the protectionism is was( protecting US jobs) in past years

Two: Raise the tax rate of the rich to where it was in the 50’s and 60’s.

Three: Bring back the Glass–Steagall act that separated investment banking from ordinary savings and loan commercial banks. Only then will the economy start returning to growth.

a reply to: UnderKingsPeak

I hope your right.

What is so bad is the blindness of people to such simple realities.

These rich folks won’t take all their money to the grave. Nor does all that money really make one happy. Look at all the suicides amongst the rich and drug use.

But millions of Americans go to bed hungry and many children.

And if religion is right the rich they have a problem in the next life.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Aazadan

Right Now the top 40% of earners pay ALL the taxes...

Source

So you are implying they should pay more than ALL?

I think people who make these statements aren't even remotely aware of who pays what taxes in the US.

The only fair tax is a tax where everyone pays the same rate.

Someone at the 60th percentile is currently overtaxed. Someone at the 99th percentile is undertaxed.