Who is at fault for the police state? YOU ARE USA. You are.

a reply to: tadaman

I first like to count the number of points on the star they wear. To me it is a representation of what side they are in service of.

My best friends brother is almost a cop and he is a decent guy but by no means intelligent or restrained enough for the job.

We have so many bad cops for the same reason we have so many bad teachers. We don't incentivize the right kind of people to take on such an important job. We've incentivized businessmen, bankers, lawyers, and politicians. Is it any surprise that most of our best and brightest head to those careers and become corrupted by them?

Everything is ass backwards in this country and it gets worse every day. It's not any one groups fault. Its the result of a cultural disease that has been growing for years. This disease is how TPTB keep us too weak to fight back.

a reply to: tadaman

Next time you mindlessly follow the leader talking mess about cops, remember that you do the same things as them. These men and women come from your communities, Your families, Your groups. YOU made them. Maybe if you want them to change, YOU have to change too.

I appreciate the time you've spent writing this topic and further, I respect your opinions on the matter at hand. That said, the quoted paragraph above highlights a certain naiveté inherent seemingly to some cross sections of modern American Society. Of course such is my opinion. Nevertheless, I---we---American citizens in general, do not do the same "things" as any law enforcement officer really. "We" do not on a regular basis physically beat and pummel and kick and in doing so seriously injure our fellow Americans. We do not on a regular basis unload multiple live rounds of hollow point ammunition into individuals who disrespect us or whom we suspect to be breaking the law.

However, please allow me to stop (myself) there. Common sense and life experience combine fortunately to clearly inform us citizens that by and large we are unlike our militarized police forces simply because the adjectives: similar and like and same make such apparent.

There's just no comparison.

Nor I fear are psychological devils of one's past conjured while coming to adult age legal or sensible excuses cum justifications for instinctual, brutal behaviors of our law enforcement personnel.

Otherwise, and with the utmost respect . . . get real.

originally posted by: tadaman
So I was wondering,

Where did all the bad cops in the US come from?

Everyone who is not a cop will generate the same knee jerk reaction when talking about cops. There are absurd extremes when people will even HATE them just for what they do for a living.

I have to ask, where do you think they all came from? Its not like this is true for all police in every country. Its not like this is true for every generation of American police. So what changed? Ever ask yourself that? HONESTLY?

Can I tell you something you wont like? WE MADE THEM. They come from our population. We arent breeding them in tanks somewhere. They are born and RAISED in our society. We changed and as a result they did.

Have you ever met someone who bitches about cities generating revenue when they get a ticket, but not about if the ticket is technically their fault or not. If a justification comes up in their argument as for why they dont deserve it based on common sense but not on whether or not they deserved it outright according to the law or not then take notice of one thing: Cant the same argument be bade from behind a badge? Yeah technically I cant search you illegally, but logically I am justified in doing so....It can, it does happen. You use the same justifications no matter what you do.

Have you noticed how people talk about cops? If you replace the word "cops" from what they say with a race or faith, is not the same sort of dehumanizing arguments that were made against every discriminated group ever?

Next time you mindlessly follow the leader talking mess about cops, remember that you do the same things as them. These men and women come from your communities, Your families, Your groups. YOU made them. Maybe if you want them to change, YOU have to change too.

If the US deserves better police like many (myself included) believe then maybe we should consider that we have to become a better country for that to happen.

If the back handed government wanted to exact more control, how could they if the police were integral and well adjusted parts of their communities? What happens in places where sheriffs and such are loved and respected members of their communities? They defy the Government and cause sensational headlines by refusing gun regulations, or getting into hot water defying the president because thats what their communities want. Coincidence?

If you wanted to gain more control over a population like that of law enforcement wouldnt you need to isolate them first? Create a common enemy? How have we NOT done that for them already? You invite cops to your BBQs? Yeah? You try to talk to them like anyone else when they are off duty? You hang out with them and make them feel welcome? Sure. No, this higher ideal crap comes up all the time. They are almost paying a price for wearing a uniform. Like a crime has been committed by them just for wanting to become cops. How about fairness? That too much to ask?

SO I will leave it at that.

Flame on my entitled, arrogant, deceitful, abusive, manipulative, and impune country. Flame on.

Tell me how you dont have an ounce of blame. Tell me how its not your responsibility. Tell me how cops are a special kind of evil or wrong. Tell me how they arent human while you do it. Tell me how you deserve things without anything being required from you.

Dude, you have NEVER been profiled have you? You've never been truly scared for your life when pulled over huh? Never been tailed out of your house and then thrown against your own car and told that you were going to be framed. YOU are the problem with America, not people who call BS when they see it. Police are a class of people whom we have made up to INITIALIZE violence against other people, even nonviolent ones! you see, self DEFENSE is cool with me but not aggresion. You dont know what happens when you try to treat officers "the same" as other people in the community. They will use that to get closer and FcK you, same as any other sociopath hell bent on harming folks. Stay safe man and don't give them ANYTHING, EVER.

a reply to: JamesCookieIII

Yes I have seen the bad cops and been harassed by them. I was no saint as a kid.

I have also been treated well by the good cops the way we all expect to be treated. You dont use the bad ones to define the good ones too.

If you cant see that then I have nothing more to say. I will wait for your own views to backfire on you and leave it at that.

I am a little disgusted by the attitude of people. I thought differently before, but now I am convinced that this world is in the state it is in thanks to the people who live in it. Not some far off "them".....its us all the way. We dont even have the merit and caliber of personality to admit to our own faults.

"oh I dont beat or shoot people"...yeah but do you justify wrong behavior you take part in? Do you lie and manipulate situations to your advantage over the supposed principle of it? Do you blindly support "your own" regardless of how wrong they are? Then you are just like a bad cop.

I recently posted a story of a good friend of mine being profiled where he and his band had drugs planted on them. I wasnt saying they deserved it. I supported them 100%

That doesnt mean I think all NYC cops are like the ones that did that to them. In fact, I think we need the good cops more than ever if things are as bad as they are. Without them we have idiots flaming on our behalf which will only make things get worse. I want the good people on the inside to help us. Not spiteful dumb asses looking for youtube hits....

a reply to: tadaman

Well said. Well said. If more people would be willing to admit mistakes, flaws and weaknesses things would improve.

Matt Bai said almost exactly this on the daily show in an interview on Monday. He wrote a book about tabloid coverage of politics. Id rather not paraphrase too much so just watch the interview (it's only a few minutes long) but I'll try.

Essentially he said that the shift in media coverage of politics leads to great leaders being shot down because they can't play the game. Instead we get politicians who know how to do PR and have never experienced anything real in their life. Very very poor paraphrase so just go watch it real quick.

Ken Burns (director of the PBS documentary the roosevelts) said something in the same vein about the Roosevelts (also on the daily show). He said the most interesting thing and them us how tragic and awful their lives were and how flawed they were as human beings. IIRC Stewart asked if they would have made it as political leaders today and Burns said flat out that they eloquent because they were too independent and wouldnt play the PR games we have now.

Both interviews were fantastic as were both pieces of work by them.

Bottom line. If you think you are great and do nothing wrong you're lying to yourself. Admit your flaws personally and see the flaws in our system. Nothing is ever perfect so it's sad to see people always saying their way is the right way and they have the answers.

a reply to: tadaman

Have you noticed how people talk about cops? If you replace the word "cops" from what they say with a race or faith, is not the same sort of dehumanizing arguments that were made against every discriminated group ever?

Discriminated groups didn't wield power over a large portion of the populace. They didn't...

1. shoot people
2. shoot dogs
3. conduct no knock raids at the wrong houses that ended in injury or death
4. have the authority to beat the living sh!t out of people
5. ...the list goes on

...and then be so far above the law it's RARE to see one get punished or charged.

BUT, you are correct we did make them. More importantly the US military made many of them. In fact, many of the State and Local academies are run very much militarily.

You are missing a key element to this equation. While these individuals were made, it is their work training, work environment, and collective work attitudes that MAKE them.

You don't believe me? Please read the Stanford Prison Experiment, conducted in 1971 when policing wasn't perhaps such an issue (though that's arguable). For those not familiar with it basically proves:
1. Importance of roles of power and perception of power
2. Importance of group think

The people "pretending" to be guards basically became prison guards and did some pretty f@%ked up stuff to the people "pretending" to be prisoners.

The only way we make these cops is by our inability to hire and vote for worthwhile human beings to implement proper hiring practices for law enforcement. Most cops are the way they are because the system has been devised to only allow cops in that will indeed treat people the same as the guards did in the Stanford Prison Experiment. Finding those people through psychological and aptitude testing isn't hard.

And make no mistake about it, not all law enforcement departments are like this. But this is slowly creeping around the country.

As an example - remember the leaked video of the Wall Street Kappa Beta Phi fraternity? All the skits in that video of them going on about how they are misunderstood. Like somehow they are the victims? Yeah, kinda the same thing here.

See, one major difference in policing is that many police officer don't live in or near the neighborhoods they police. They don't "walk beats" anymore and get to know the people. The system has police removed from the public for a reason (see Stanford Prison Experiment) - it makes it easier for them to treat people like s#!t when they don't get to know them.

Your theory is nice, but it really does lack a lot of relevant studies and psychological changes that have been made regarding policing in this country. This is being done on purpose. The cops that are bad are so because many are being created, but not by the simple citizens. I could go on, but while I enjoyed your write up it was a bit one sided regarding the complexity of this issue and I have barely touched on it myself.

a reply to: WCmutant

Well for one, you are still arguing for the dehumanizing of a group. It is what it is.

also, saying that discriminated groups held no power isnt exactly correct. Jews in pre-ww2 Nazi Germany held allot of political and financial power. Its why they were targeted. (Even today) Usually it is done because a group poses a perceived threat and that threat is sometimes because they hold power. Like saying that vets are potential domestic terrorists as our government does. Many here would fall in line with that because of the image they have of soldiers in their minds. If all ex soldiers were rounded up tomorrow, many here would cheer it on like was done to the Jews by Germans.

Saying that discriminated groups dont do the things cops have to because of their jobs is like saying a doctor never changed an oil filter on a patient. Of coarse he didnt. He isnt a mechanic and people are not cars. Mechanics never killed a patient by negligence either, though some may have cut some brake lines and killed customers....Doctors have killed people by administering wrong medicine, bad surgery, or other such means. It doesnt mean they are inherently evil because they are doctors. Even when they turn away non insured people by throwing them in a cab to die in an alley because they are homeless. That does happen. Its not their call, but they do it if its hospital policy.

That doesnt mean they are inherently evil because of their profession. Thats like saying that becoming a doctor has an inherent risk of becoming a murderer. You dont because of human nature, become into a patient killing machine when you become a doctor just because there are bad doctors that do. People from screwed up societies that study medicine become bad doctors. Just like rotten people from a rotten society become bad cops.

It is still on the society they come from for producing them.

As far as the psychological test you mention. Yes I think most people have heard of it. It proves my point really. I dont know how you see it otherwise. Here you had average people becoming sociopaths when given authority. Justifying the dehumanizing of another group based on circumstance. It is still a telling measure of the society they come from.

You can say what you will, but you are no different than a bad cop if you justify treating cops differently based solely on where you stand in respect to them. Like the students standing on the other side of the bars looking at their mock prisoners. When the mock prisoners "acted up" the mock guards exerted more control. Those guards sure as hell justified their behavior.

You just went through elaborate jumps and hoops to continue feeling good about dehumanizing police. You are a mock guard in my experiment. You acted just like the ones you mentioned. You justified the mistreatment of the mock prisoners in this test for "acting up".

You see a "them VS us" situation. Just like those students. Just like bad cops do.

You all think you are making fantastic arguments against me, but you are all proving me right with only a few exceptions.

a reply to: tadaman

Great post OP. Indeed, police officer is an exact replica of the society where they came from. They don't walk 'beat the street' to know people? Who does anymore. Honestly, by today's standard, do we know/make the effort to know our neibours? Everybody as a list of what police officers had done wrong. Well , ok, some did wrong. Like everybody around you! They have families, child & parents. Do we think we hire gods??? Like you and me they do what they think is right. They have to enforce laws, which they didn't always endorse, the best they can, and with orders from above their head. And like in every jobs, there is a say 2% of bad apples. And since they have a job of authority, those 2% make a huge impact and the stories spread like fire. But, big difference, they have to decide in split second and have the spotlight on 'em while we juge with no time limit in a safe environment.

I'll tell a lil story: there was a guy who called the police because he lost his child and his friend who came to sleep over. It's around 11 pm. So the police went to see the guy. Oh surprise, he's drunk. The two child are 8 and 9 years old. Their is a big party in town so there is many strangers, partying people, fast circulation... That's where the guy was when the kids left the house. So first police have to tell the other family, who were asleep, that their kid is missing: joy. Then contact everybody around to help in search, there is large body of water around plus cliff, no fun. So every helping hand is searching and police ask the drunk father to help 'cause he knows his son, his whereabout etc.. answer? It's police job! He then got what he deserve: a freaking verbal reality check for his great parenthood. Language was strong. What immediatly happens? Cell filming by kids around. So what you get: a video of a cop getting angry at a poor guy whose kid is missing.

Always ask yourself: what's before that vid/news. Am I missing something? Stories like the above I could give you tons. We juge the situations presented in media by our living standards/experiences, which are NOT the casual police intervention field. And what with that 2%? Exercise your rights. Is it a perfect system? No, just like the health system, the insurance system, the law sytem, the politic system, etc..

Finally, do we wake up every morning asking ourself how we could f*?& up someone's life? Nor does your average cop. He does his best every day, just like YOU.

Peace

a reply to: tadaman

so its the people that are to blame for the police force they have!!....get real.....the problem is the police no longer longer police for the right reasons....police used to be respected now they are borderline hated...the game has changed...police work is all about profit now ...there is a growing divide and the police are only adding fuel to the fire....

a reply to: tadaman

Sorry OP but you are wrong. The police state is a symptom of a greater disease other symptoms are young people not leaving the house and living off others well into adulthood. The anti-bullying campaigns,selective tolerance,affirmative action,welfare state,everybody is a winner are all symptoms also.


The rise of the progressive is in truth the cause of all of this. They put the rights of the masses before the rights of the individual. When you do this a police state will always rise to fill the gap. Look back into history to see the future.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

A bad leader does bad things. A bad leader of a bad population does more bad things because its normal. Our presidents lie and cheat for profit and we complain since its technically wrong. We dont get our hands dirty and fight until that ends though since its normal. Just like we dont call up the IRS when they under charge us. We dont send extra money to a phone company when our bill is wrong but in our favor.

Some people do. Most dont, hence why I say society.

Our own faults are difficult to accept. Really, impossible to. We dont like to admit our faults. Its hard. Its easier to say a far off "they or them" is at fault.

There have been clinical studies done about this. Our society rewards perceived strength and punishes perceived weakness. A honest person doesnt get promoted, or get flirted with, or is given breaks to rules they break. WHY? Because we as a society have learned to lie and screw people over for a promotion. We know that its easier to get into a relationship if you are successful, powerful and wealthy. Its easier to get by in life by mentioning powerful people you know. "I know the owner of this restaurant, I want this, give it or I will use my influence"....ect.

We are rotten and addicted to being jerks. Just admit it. Its hard only in the beginning. Once you do that you can start to kick the habit. Jut like a drug user. You have to start with you. Its easier to clean you up rather than to wage a war on drugs.

a reply to: SubTruth

Maybe,

What we agree on is that we are sick. It is a disease. I say its a societal disease. Societal decay run rampant.

Progressive culture wouldn't be a problem if we weren't already so screwed up and lacking balance or control.

Just like conservative culture wouldnt get the bad rap it does if we were truly balanced and reasonable.

Like I said in the OP, our world sucks because we do. Its not a far off thing screwing the world up. Its the people that live here that are.

a reply to: tadaman

There have been clinical studies done about this. Our society rewards perceived strength and punishes perceived weakness. A honest person doesnt get promoted, or get flirted with, or is given breaks to rules they break. WHY? Because we as a society have learned to lie and screw people over for a promotion.

this is true

We are rotten and addicted to being jerks. Just admit it. Its hard only in the beginning. Once you do that you can start to kick the habit.

this is also true....my problem with the police of today is they are getting into the job for the wrong reasons....and when in a position of power they expect respect....even if they haven't earned it and that is big part of the problem they have .....as another poster mentioned "the Stamford prison experiment" is a great example how a little bit of power corrupts people.....

there is an old saying if you cant stand the heat you should stay out of the kitchen

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Ok.

I say that this happens because we are doing something wrong or not doing something right.

Either way, I dont see other countries having these problems. If what you say was true it would be true for other countries as well.

No one likes cops when they give tickets or bother them with dumb rules that no wants no matter the country...., but the level of animosity and reinforcing cycles of hate between populace and police in the US is indicative of something bigger. Its too simplistic to say that this is happening because our government is bad. Government has rarely been good throughout history. What is causing this has more to do with us rather than a perceived "them".

If the situation is really as bad as some say (maybe I dont know) and it isnt a case of the microscope becoming the telescope then we need to get real. The good cops have never been more needed then. Vilifying them all isnt going to help the good ones do a better job. In fact it will help isolate them and propel the bad ones into more power.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: tadaman


You never know what call a cop has just returned from when he pulls you over.

Americans as a whole did not generate the police state that is encroaching on them. The people that run things from behind the scenes, the rich and powerful, the hand wringers, the frightened ones did that.

What they just came from? Like back from the house after returning their toys because they got mad no one wanted to play the game their way? Disrespect their authoritah and catch a magazine since they are far to old to get mamma involved like they could on the baseball diamond. Cops arent riding around seeing grotesque things all day. In my town I have a much better chance of coming upon a corpse or crime scene before the police do since there are areas the brave boys in blue flat refuse to go. Those areas are very high crime , which I heard once in a movie is where police are supposed to focus. Most days are all donuts and d+_×#ing off with a few domestic disputes thrown in. Maybe getting to point your gun at a cracked out minority with a flip flop and wipe the sweat from your balding head when the flip flop fails to go off and kill you and your partner.
Then let me add there are men in the blue uniform I resoect. Mostly the military vets doing the transition. Those guys get the job done and have way more heart than anyone off the street could ever have. Those are the men we need more off then a possee comitatus forum wouldnt of ever been discussed.

a reply to: reeferdonkey

Cops aren't riding around seeing grotesque things all day.

I never said they were?

Hows the pts?

I tend to see all the parts of a nation as being the products of the society and culture. Sometimes we don't see the connections right away, don't see the root ideas or behaviors which give rise to something... but often we don't WANT to see them. We don't want to consider that we might be a part of creating exactly that which we don't want.

Personally, I think it is important to make that effort though, and important not to be too condemning of oneself for having done that!

It is important to recognize that all humans are prone to inadvertently creating "side effects" of their choices that they did not foresee or expect- particularly in the case of cultural, collective movements. The "cure" for one problem is often the cause of another one.

But the more you react to these perceptions with harsh condemnation the less you encourage yourself or others to take that risk and look for such causes. Their mind will become conditioned to avoid that harsh judgement and do whatever it can to turn a blind eye to their own part in things they don't like.

To err is human, all things, all choices, all ideas, have a positive and negative side to them, and we just can't always foresee effects. It is like medication- you cannot always be sure how they will interact with a certain biology. The important thing is to recognize the effects and consider what kinds of changes we can work on next.

To that aim, I like to look around at other nations and consider what they tried, what works and how- what were the varied side effects they got? I won't get involved too much in this discussion, because I think people get might sick of me sharing my perceptions of different choices I have observed in France.

I just step in to plea for grace and understanding in the process of self reflection.....

a reply to: tadaman

Either way, I dont see other countries having these problems. If what you say was true it would be true for other countries as well.

ok fair call....in this this country for the most part police are respectful ...they do have quota's and are there to justify their own means...more tickets = more funding....but they are not the psychopaths i commonly read about that are in the U.S...in saying that they are not what police used to be...they no longer protect and serve they collect and punish

but the level of animosity and reinforcing cycles of hate between populace and police in the US is indicative of something bigger. Its too simplistic to say that this is happening because our government is bad. Government has rarely been good throughout history. What is causing this has more to do with us rather than a perceived "them".

could it be as simple as ...the fact that as society grows so does the divide between the rich and the poor....we have seen too many times how there are 2 sets of rules....is this the point where people are so fed up anger is becoming common place..on both sides...the police find themselves as the ones enforcing the divide...

who knows this is complicated....i do not agree with blaming the populace for this as they are not in control of where this is headed...it is the greedy boneheads up the top of the food chain that are directing this runaway train...

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Fair enough man. I see what you are saying.

I dont think its a class issue since cops come from all walks of life.

The one solution I can think of is to employ the model that other countries have. I will use Spain since its another country I am very familiar with.

Spain has military police (civil guard) and regular police that fall into county, city and national corps.

The military police do the same functions as the rest but are employed for more aggressive assignments like narcotics busts and organized crime. They work with regular police as well on these things.

The more crazy LEOs go into military police corps, but are more controlled as a result of more discipline and checks and balances. Normal more passive cops are put into more direct interaction with the population.

Civil guard members had a huge stigma after the Franco dictatorship mind you for being the heavy hand of the government, but they managed to clear that up by referring things like traffic violations and petty crime to regular police corps. They didnt have to change to much as a result and only focused on correcting the problems rather than trying to do a complete over haul.

The end result is a balanced police force where aggressive criminals deal with the military and civilians deal with their neighbors and community members.

I think an approach like that would be best for the US, but sadly there is such a bad stigma on the military in our country that if people see military police policing their communities they will think its the end of the world. If you ask me, sending in military police into areas that regular police are too afraid to go would correct those areas. It would also avoid the accidents by scared cops reacting to combs and wallets since the military are generally better trained and more professional.

I dont know. It is complicated.

Either way, Thanks for hearing me out.
have a good one.