Persistant water on mars

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

interesting stuff on the phoenix lander , as ArMaP pointed out ,but is this really comparable to the picture were seeing from curiosity.. 7 minuets is quite a short time for seeing the movement we are seeing

I can't tell in this image that you posted if the movement is actually something there, or if it is due to the change in the sun's angle:

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

files.abovetopsecret.com...

this picture will giveyou a better view

note that some of the pathmakers don't move at all

a piece of paper held upto the screen will show the little mover making a tiny bit more path, as for the larger piece the shadow will give you a good indication to the direction of movement

ill do some more images later of those that have not been imaged already, time constrains atm

files.abovetopsecret.com... quite a bit faster

funbox

originally posted by: Phage
There can be no dew on Mars. The air pressure is to low to allow liquid water to condense. Frost is possible in the Martian winter, but no dew. And no possibility of liquid water (unless it's very, very salty) except for a few regions (of which Gale Crater is not one).

NASA seems to be coming to the 'conclusion', (although I suppose that could change, it's all very fluid ) that a very salty brine could make liquid water stable, and that Calcium Perchlorate is seemingly the catalyst, and has been found in considerable amounts, and it's the Astrobiololgy group that that has the findings.

"Astrobiologists supported by the Exobiology and Evolutionary Biology element of the NASA Astrobiology Program have discovered that a salt on Mars could cause liquid water to form when it comes into contact with water ice. The study was inspired by images from NASA’s Phoenix mission, which showed what appeared to be droplets of liquid water on a leg of the lander.
Researchers determined that liquid water could be stable on Mars if it was very salty – a possibility that arose when calcium perchlorate was identified on the martian surface by missions including Phoenix and the Curiosity rover.
The team found that a particular type of salt found on Mars can actually melt ice that it touches. In tests where calcium perchlorate (or a salty, simulated mars soil) was placed on top of water ice, droplets of liquid water formed within minutes at temperature ranges within the conditions of the Phoenix landing site. The presence of water was confirmed by shining lasers on the surface and examining the reflected light in a process known as Raman scattering spectroscopy."

To add, "For me, the most exciting thing is that I can now understand how the droplets formed on the Phoenix leg,” said Nilton Renno of the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor...that's because they know about anything that could be considered any life form that could survive in the brine.

As for the dew, some are talking about early morning dew, professor James Wray is one of a team working on that,

www.sciencefriday.com...

You can listen to what he says at the link, with the audio media player.
Richard Hoover's remarks should be in this video,


Elsewhere, I have seen quoted the amount of ice water in the regolith being between 2% and 60%. That may be from Richard Hoover too somewhere. It makes you thing too that the mantle of CO2 ice must be playing some part as well..a localised mini warming to help things along perhaps?

a reply to: smurfy

Very good data, and it may or may not be related to the phenomena discussed on this thread. The droplets discussed in your posts, those formed on the leg, were not shown moving. This thread focuses on what is likely a moving substance. Hence, possible, as has been mentioned by Blue Shift on the anomalies thread, "Historic". Could this be the first photographic evidence of liquid moving on Mars? I hope so, for the sake of funbox and Blue Shift, who, along with a very few others, are two of ATS's premier Mars explorers, and for ATS, for the anomalies thread, and ArMap. May be getting ahead of myself here, but this find is not just something that could be picked out of a Curiosity landscape picture - it had to be noticed, checked, then photographic evidence of the movement presented. So if it turns out to be what funbox and Blue Shift are surmising, at least one of the probable surmises, ATS should be very proud. imnho.

a reply to: Aleister

the ongoing saga of life aye Aleister, all manner of pitfalls and pre-soaked paraphernalia



theres seems to be a fair bit of movement , and the more I look the more it perplexes me

in A it almost looks like the the path of least resistance is being followed

in B it looks to me like a path is branching or vastly changing direction

in c it looks like the party over

so many more , running low on gif juice .. hope I haven't contracted anything patented from the last batch
*pokes the cosmic joker in the eye*

funbox

originally posted by: Aleister

But this find is not just something that could be picked out of a Curiosity landscape picture - it had to be noticed, checked, then photographic evidence of the movement presented. So if it turns out to be what funbox and Blue Shift are surmising, at least one of the probable surmises, ATS should be very proud. imnho.

A bit late on this one, but I absolutely have to agree with you regarding the quote above and that funBox, BlueShift, Smurfy, yourself and a few others did an excellent job at disassembling the footage and debating the possible cause for these streaks & movements.

I'm currently not sure as to how this could be interpreted (there are definitely members on here with more solid expertise than myself when it comes to geochemistry). But since it obviously didn't escape NASA/JPL - cause the process was meticulously imaged - I guess it must be of some importance. Looking forward to whatever comes out of this discussion ... !

a reply to: jeep3r

never too late Jeep, ive been looking back through the images to see if there are more , what would be good though is a timetable of the various drilling operations done so far, would certainly make looking through the sols faster, although I do not think there's going to be any with such a short time frame between shots

im guessing the future will hold more answers , and like you said it appears to be a something also noted by Nasa

any insiders who know what the rover was upto in those 9 minuets or so?

funbox

The saddest part about this thread is that, for all the time spent investigating and deliberating, there is no sign of water on Curiosity. There is a layer of dust and trails left by mineral grains due to vibration and perhaps wind.

Curiosity has an instrument that measures humidity of the atmosphere. I'm sure that if there were even a few evaporating drops of water anywhere near Cury, the instrument would have picked it up.

As for what Cury could have been doing while standing still, it could have been a drill test, and actual drilling, or even using the robotic arm to shake the drilled sample.

And here's the info on what Cury has been doing on that Sol: astrogeology.usgs.gov...

After our successful drill last week, the main event in today’s sol 765 plan is dropping off the drilled sample in CheMin, which will tell us what minerals are in the rocks of Pahrump Hills. CheMin works by shining a beam of X-rays through the sample and recording how the X-rays reflect off of the structure of the crystals in the sample. To make sure that every possible orientation of the crystals is measured, the sample holder vibrates, causing the powdered rock to mix around in the sample cell.

[Emphasis mine]

a reply to: funbox

I can't find what Curiosity was doing during those exact 9 minutes, but here's the Sol 765 report: astrogeology.usgs.gov...

After our successful drill last week, the main event in today’s sol 765 plan is dropping off the drilled sample in CheMin, which will tell us what minerals are in the rocks of Pahrump Hills. CheMin works by shining a beam of X-rays through the sample and recording how the X-rays reflect off of the structure of the crystals in the sample. To make sure that every possible orientation of the crystals is measured, the sample holder vibrates, causing the powdered rock to mix around in the sample cell.

The drill sample has been sieved so that only particles smaller than 150 microns will go to CheMin. The rover will dump out the particles that are coarser than 150 microns, take pictures of them with Mastcam and MAHLI, and measure their composition with APXS. Not all of the fine-grained sample will go to CheMin: some will be saved for analysis by SAM, and in case we want to re-analyze it with CheMin.

Looking at all the images for Sol 765, you can see the discarded pile of coarse material:



The material is not there in the front hazcam images taken at 01:32:20. It is first visible in the navcam images at 06:37:42. So that means the coarse debris was sifted and discarded and the sample delivered to CheMin during that time. I think it's likely that the photos taken at 06:03:46 and 06:12:34 by the mastcam were taken while the CheMin sample holder was vibrating.

a reply to: wildespace

at least you see the movement wildespace, shame you don't have any facts in regards to forces exerted on such particulates

what kind of vibrations or motion would Crete such paths?

an vibratory motion of sufficient force would bounce particulates wouldn't it , given there small size
and why do we see some movement in some and not others?
is there some kind of cohesive force? to make things slide?

why do some particulates disappear completely?

to many odd inconsistencies in the visual evidence for me to believe vibrations are the sole cause
I don't rule it out as a possibility, but I have a hard time refuting what my eyes see

again , further solid information regarding the operation in the timeframe would settle much

funbox

a reply to: nataylor

excellent investigation work Nataylor looks like you've narrowed it down to on-board vibratory motion , could it be that particulates of ice were drilled and sifted out onto the rover? melted and then caused the trails ?

again , great detective work

funbox

originally posted by: wildespace
And here's the info on what Cury has been doing on that Sol: astrogeology.usgs.gov...

"After our successful drill last week, the main event in today’s sol 765 plan is dropping off the drilled sample in CheMin, which will tell us what minerals are in the rocks of Pahrump Hills. CheMin works by shining a beam of X-rays through the sample and recording how the X-rays reflect off of the structure of the crystals in the sample. To make sure that every possible orientation of the crystals is measured, the sample holder vibrates, causing the powdered rock to mix around in the sample cell."
[Emphasis mine]

That's an interesting point. By the way, this video below is what that vibration looks like. The "video" was taken way back on Sol 69 (October 16, 2012), and is a clip created from a quick succession of still images taken during the vibrating process.

The rover was much cleaner back then, so we cannot see any other dust besides what is in the scoop. However, we can see the amount of vibration that takes place -- some of which I suppose could be transferred through the rover:

The vibration starts at about the :30 mark in this video:
And here is a link to the Sol 69 Mastcam images from which this video was created:
MSL Mastcam Sol 69

Hats off to you too wildspace and you too Soylent, some interesting new pieces of information ,
looks like we have the most likely contender for the movement seen.

another one vibrates the dust eh

maybe

funbox

There was similar activity and similar photos were taken on Sol 282.

Two mastcam images (one taken at 01:02:04 and 01:10:59) show similar movement of particles. However, there is less overall dust on the rover.

I think the "streaks" we see in the Sol 765 images are the result of larger particles moving across the fine dust buildup on the surface of the rover. As these particles move, the push some of that fine dust to the sides, leaving a "streak."

a reply to: nataylor

excellent a comparison shot from way earlier, and there does appear to be a streak at the middle left bottom of the photo ..

ill try to get a gif on the go later , see if that streaks still present in the newer pics

again great detective work

funbox

a reply to: cloaked4u

Looks like to me it is a model of something put together with wood,bolts and pvc pipe you can buy at home depot. I call HOAX.

LOL

Great thread!
Here is some with a different pattern way back in the mar anomaly thread do you remember it? Near the top of the page.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: funbox

Indeed, some of the streaks in the Sol 282 images can be seen in the Sol 765 images. You can see how additional fine dust was deposited over some of them, and how some of them extended over that time.

a reply to: Char-Lee

I had a vague recollection earlier in this thread. 93 pages in , ill bet that wasn't easy to find

good memory you have there matey

funbox