Mysteries of The Great Pyramid Explored...

Im sure harte will have no problem regurgitating all that stuff wiki tells him

then trying to talk down to everyone for not being as good a wiki reader as him

He's a pro u know



reply to: Scott Creighton

As I said, salt exfoliation is taboo around here mostly, as is pointing out that that as far as evidence for pyramids as tombs, the sarcophagi point to it, as do the funerary temple complexes attached to every pyramid, and dozens of other pieces of evidence exist for it as well.

Also, at least one pyramid has been found to have an occupant. How many pyramids have been found with a few leavings of grain in the cracks and corners? How many pyramids have been found with leftover electrical wiring or "microwave"-inducing earth movement "resonators" in them?

Let's admit it. Even if each of the above had been found in some pyramid, that in itself wouldn't satisfy the Creighton definition of "...hard, empirical evidence."

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
... as far as evidence for pyramids as tombs, the sarcophagi point to it, as do the funerary temple complexes attached to every pyramid...

SC: Okay, let's see.

1) Prove the stone containers found in only a few of the pre-5th dynasty pyramids were sarcophagi and not, for example, neb-ankh (i.e. what Egyptologists today call 'Osiris Beds').

2) Just because Egyptologists LABEL the ancillary structures attached to these pyramids 'Funerary Temples' doesn't actually make them funerary structures. Prove these temple structures were funerary in nature and not, for example, Chthonic Temples. Let's see the evidence that proves these temple structures were funerary in nature.

3) Present proof of an ORIGINAL (as opposed to an intrusive burial) in one of these first pyramids.

Harte: How many pyramids have been found with a few leavings of grain in the cracks and corners?

As for grain--you might want to check out the vast quantities of grain that were found in the underground galleries and passageways of the Step Pyramid at Saqqara as well as tens of thousands of storage vessels. The first explorers of that pyramid complex were wading shin-deep in grain through its underground galleries and passageways. There is also considerable secondary evidence of massive amounts of grain having been stored in the Great Pyramid. But we are not here to discuss my theories--I am asking YOU to present hard, empirical evidence that the pre-5th dynasty pyramids were originally conceived and built for the purposes of burying an Egyptian king. Present the evidence.

Harte: ...and dozens of other pieces of evidence exist for it as well.

SC: Really? Then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to produce this evidence, should it?

SC

a reply to: Scott Creighton

What's this Scot you've swung back to representing yourself as a scientist again?

lol

For lurkers Scott has been pushing the idea that pyramids were built as seed vaults and 19,000+ years old recently he has been trying to generate buzz for the publication of his next book in January.

He outlines his idea here, (2012)

Scott's seed vault idea

Those interested in this idea and the debate on it can see these long long tedious debates at 'another website' or in a lesser version at Scott's in ATS subform here:

Scott's home

I wonder if Hanslune and Harte have scripts provided for them to prove that Khufu ever existed?


The dating of pyramids probably shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb for Khufu/Cheops or whatever other names people have found referencing him shouldn't be doubted.


Yet nobody ever questions if these 'Pharaohs' - literally translated to mean "Great House' ever existed as flesh and blood human beings.

What evidence exists that Khufu lived at all? A 3inch tall figurine? A handful of inscriptions all from much later time periods? An inscription found from the builders entitled "Friends of Khufu" …

Has any early Pharaohs body ever been found? How would you even know if that human was anything other than a guy buried with a figurine? If they find me buried with He-Man will that make me He-Man master of the universe?




The only mystery (mithraism) of the pyramid is WHY Khufu died. Because he'd been sitting atop our celestial north pole for a very long time. Why did he go Nova? Why does Jupiter force him and his sons/daughters to the outer region of our Solar System? Were they (Saturn and Jupiter on similar elliptical paths for a long time until eventually they came within relatively close proximity to each other?)

originally posted by: 131415
I wonder if Hanslune and Harte have scripts provided for them to prove that Khufu ever existed?


The dating of pyramids probably shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb for Khufu/Cheops or whatever other names people have found referencing him shouldn't be doubted.


Yet nobody ever questions if these 'Pharaohs' - literally translated to mean "Great House' ever existed as flesh and blood human beings.

Are we to pretend that TPTB made them up?
Records made by Ancient Egyptian officials from Khufu's time have been found. They mention him too.

To these “bureaucratic” accounts another exceptional type of document can be added of which more than a hundred fragments of varying sizes (some over 50 cm in length) have been discovered. It is a personal logbook that records every day activities of a team led by a Memphis official, the inspector Merer (sḥḏ Mrr), who was in charge of a team of about 200 men (fig. 14b).

SNIP

Over a period of several months, it reports – in form of a timetable with two columns per day – many operations related to the construction of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza and the work at the limestone quarries on the opposite bank of the Nile. On a regular basis, there are also descriptions concerning the transportation, on the Nile and connected canals, of stone blocks, which had been extracted from the northern and southern quarries of ura (r-ȝw rsj and r-ȝw mhtj). These blocks were delivered within four days at the pyramid construction site – called the “Horizon of Khufu” (ȝ ḫt Ḫ wfw) and were probably used for the external casing of the Great Pyramid, made of fine limestone.

More about this here. Also a link to downlod as as a PDF.

Do you suppose these records, which mention both Khufu and his pyramid by name, are talking about a non=existent person? Do you think that the Ancient Egyptians would have made official records that never once mention the name of the king at that time? If you remove the word "Khufu" from the papyri the link is about, there is no other king mentioned.

originally posted by: 131415Has any early Pharaohs body ever been found? How would you even know if that human was anything other than a guy buried with a figurine? If they find me buried with He-Man will that make me He-Man master of the universe?

Early kings have not been found lying in state in any early pyramid. However, a queen has been found in precisely that way.

“Although they did not find the name of the queen buried in the pyramid, all the signs indicate that she is Seshestet, the mother of King Teti, the first king of the Sixth Dynasty,” - said Zahi Hawass. Interestingly, the two ‘pin holes’ used to secure the sacrcophagus lid are unusually large, as can be seen in the accompanying image. The sarcophagus is thought to weigh in at around six tons. The team took five hours to lift the heavy granite lid and once the lid was removed human remains were found lying inside. These remains consist of a skull, legs, pelvis and other body parts, once wrapped in linen. The tomb had been previously robbed, evidenced by a vertical shaft dug through the top of the pyramid. Even though the sarcophagus had been breached gold finger wrappings were still found inside. Pottery was also found, perhaps remnants of offering vessels. According to one source, Dr Hawass stated that gold coins inscribed with heiroglyphs were found. The find is a very significant one as it is one of the few royal bodies found belonging to the Old Kingdom. Queen Sesheshet was the mother of Teti, the first pharaoh of the 6th Dynasty who ruled from 2323 to 2291 BC.

www.ilikeegypt.com...

The above pretty much answers your question. The tombs were all robbed over millenia. Grave robbing is thought to be the reason that secreting tombs away in hidden areas came about, like at the Valley of Kings.

I've read that there is some evidence for tombs being robbed under the orders of a pharoah, in fact. There are existing records of people being accused of robbing tombs and graves in Ancient Egypt, on papyrus. These are much later dates than the large pyramid phase though, which is understandable because papyrus doesn't last forever.

Regarding the rest of your post, I can't get what you're talking about there.

Harte

a reply to: 131415

Perhaps you could explain why and how the AE civilizations's government/religion/state worked then?

I would also wonder why other ancient empires wrote to and corresponded to said 'Pharaohs'?

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: 131415
I wonder if Hanslune and Harte have scripts provided for them to prove that Khufu ever existed?


The dating of pyramids probably shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb shouldn't be doubted.
The fact that its a tomb for Khufu/Cheops or whatever other names people have found referencing him shouldn't be doubted.


Yet nobody ever questions if these 'Pharaohs' - literally translated to mean "Great House' ever existed as flesh and blood human beings.

Are we to pretend that TPTB made them up?
Records made by Ancient Egyptian officials from Khufu's time have been found. They mention him too.

To these “bureaucratic” accounts another exceptional type of document can be added of which more than a hundred fragments of varying sizes (some over 50 cm in length) have been discovered. It is a personal logbook that records every day activities of a team led by a Memphis official, the inspector Merer (sḥḏ Mrr), who was in charge of a team of about 200 men (fig. 14b).

SNIP

Over a period of several months, it reports – in form of a timetable with two columns per day – many operations related to the construction of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza and the work at the limestone quarries on the opposite bank of the Nile. On a regular basis, there are also descriptions concerning the transportation, on the Nile and connected canals, of stone blocks, which had been extracted from the northern and southern quarries of ura (r-ȝw rsj and r-ȝw mhtj). These blocks were delivered within four days at the pyramid construction site – called the “Horizon of Khufu” (ȝ ḫt Ḫ wfw) and were probably used for the external casing of the Great Pyramid, made of fine limestone.

More about this here. Also a link to downlod as as a PDF.

Do you suppose these records, which mention both Khufu and his pyramid by name, are talking about a non=existent person? Do you think that the Ancient Egyptians would have made official records that never once mention the name of the king at that time? If you remove the word "Khufu" from the papyri the link is about, there is no other king mentioned.

originally posted by: 131415Has any early Pharaohs body ever been found? How would you even know if that human was anything other than a guy buried with a figurine? If they find me buried with He-Man will that make me He-Man master of the universe?

Early kings have not been found lying in state in any early pyramid. However, a queen has been found in precisely that way.

“Although they did not find the name of the queen buried in the pyramid, all the signs indicate that she is Seshestet, the mother of King Teti, the first king of the Sixth Dynasty,” - said Zahi Hawass. Interestingly, the two ‘pin holes’ used to secure the sacrcophagus lid are unusually large, as can be seen in the accompanying image. The sarcophagus is thought to weigh in at around six tons. The team took five hours to lift the heavy granite lid and once the lid was removed human remains were found lying inside. These remains consist of a skull, legs, pelvis and other body parts, once wrapped in linen. The tomb had been previously robbed, evidenced by a vertical shaft dug through the top of the pyramid. Even though the sarcophagus had been breached gold finger wrappings were still found inside. Pottery was also found, perhaps remnants of offering vessels. According to one source, Dr Hawass stated that gold coins inscribed with heiroglyphs were found. The find is a very significant one as it is one of the few royal bodies found belonging to the Old Kingdom. Queen Sesheshet was the mother of Teti, the first pharaoh of the 6th Dynasty who ruled from 2323 to 2291 BC.

www.ilikeegypt.com...

The above pretty much answers your question. The tombs were all robbed over millenia. Grave robbing is thought to be the reason that secreting tombs away in hidden areas came about, like at the Valley of Kings.

I've read that there is some evidence for tombs being robbed under the orders of a pharoah, in fact. There are existing records of people being accused of robbing tombs and graves in Ancient Egypt, on papyrus. These are much later dates than the large pyramid phase though, which is understandable because papyrus doesn't last forever.

Regarding the rest of your post, I can't get what you're talking about there.

Harte

Thanks for the detailed reply. None of that unfortunately proves that Khufu or any of the Early Pharaohs ever existed as flesh and blood human beings. Which is my entire point. You have an astronomical reference to him "The Horizon of Khufu" - In what other context have we ever used the term "Horizon" … or Horus Zone … or Hours.

As far as the Queen - again sketchy at best. At some point, and admittently its very difficult to figure out - HUMANS - living flesh and blood people began adorning themselves in the Names of Gods. Kind of like if I named my kid Thor. Its a powerful name. And would certainly be respected if everyone knew the context.

But early on. And this is true for all of Mesopatamia and Mesoamerica. What we have are Anamorphicized 'Characters' that are said to RULE over this particular portion of the land. These are cosmological references. Like EVERYTHING ELSE. They are referencing the 7 planets. Their visible satellites. And by all accounts earth's equatorial rings.


Khufu = The Planet Saturn. (Chronos, Osiris, Satan, Quetzequedal, Santa etc etc)
The Great Pyramid is his tomb. Commemorating when it was no longer visible in our skies.
Every Henge, Mound, Pyramid on the face of the planet can trace their origins to Cosmological references seen by humans in the skies of antiquity.


The 27th Dynasty is a very popular period with an abundance of recognizable historical characters living in it. I'd wager on this being when the philosophical shift took place. (See Sadam Hussein portraying himself as Nebuchadnezzar.)

a reply to: 131415

You appear to be dismissing the Wadi al-Jarf papyri - why is that?

Question: you seem to be hinting around that your are some form of Velikovskian Saturnist?

a reply to: Harte

...many operations related to the construction of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza...

SC: Amazing. "the Great Pyramid of Khufu". Can you tell me exactly where in the hieroglyphs from the Wadi al-Jarf papyri we observe glyphs that transliterate to the "Great Pyramid"? You see, the term "Great Pyramid" is a relatively modern and western name for this structure so I find it quite remarkable that there are glyphs in that papyri that transliterate into 'Great Pyramid'. The reason I ask is that Khufu supposedly built a number of pyramids so to find that the transliteration of the 'term Great Pyramid' is presented in this papyri is quite remarkable.

Furthermore--you are aware that there is highly compelling evidence at Giza (and elsewhere) that these structures were reworked in the 4th dynasty i.e. that they were already ancient in Khufu's time and Khufu was merely making repairs to these already ancient monuments. There are also ancient Egyptian texts that tell us Khufu repaired a number of monuments at Giza. In that context, it is hardly surprising to find a text telling us of Khufu quarrying blocks for works at Giza.

Oh, and do you have any hard evidence of pre-5th dynasty ORIGINAL pyramid burials?

SC

a reply to: Scott Creighton

Scott were any ancient monuments moved in ancient times or rededicated maybe ?

if the world shifted orbit in the past would the summer equinox shine the way it did down the avenues of old , i am sure i remember reading this years ago

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: 131415

You appear to be dismissing the Wadi al-Jarf papyri - why is that?

Question: you seem to be hinting around that your are some form of Velikovskian Saturnist?

Dismissing it? You have an ancient document that simply mentions that a certain period belonged to the rein of Khufu. I have no idea of its authenticity. I have a document that suggests we live in the year of our LORD 2014.


There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu. I'm simply questioning if he was a living breathing human being. Or another in a long line of Anamorphisized gods. There's also no doubt in my mind that it was constructed when it was.


I've never read Velokovski but his theories on the electrical nature of our universe have been proven time and time again to be factual.


Everything has an origin. There's a reason why Kings sit on a Throne and wear Crowns. People don't just implement such significant ideologies/designs without having a reason that is easily understood by the masses. And they are always rooted in factual observations.


Blaming grave robbers - is akin to suggesting the reason there is no physical proof of Jesus is because the Jews/Devil came and stole it all away. Its an awful argument.

originally posted by: 131415


Dismissing it? You have an ancient document that simply mentions that a certain period belonged to the rein of Khufu. I have no idea of its authenticity. I have a document that suggests we live in the year of our LORD 2014.

Actually they are 10 of them that mention Khufu but as it appears you haven't heard about them- we'll pass over that.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu. I'm simply questioning if he was a living breathing human being. Or another in a long line of Anamorphisized gods. There's also no doubt in my mind that it was constructed when it was.

I'm not sure how you are using the term "Anamorphosis" as it meaning is a 'distorted projection or perspective requiring the viewer to use special devices or occupy a specific vantage point to reconstitute the image', do you mean you believe that the AE held he didn't exist as a human but as an idealized non physical god?

I've never read Velokovski but his theories on the electrical nature of our universe have been proven time and time again to be factual.

Actually it hasn't and the EU has been thrown on the pile of other failed pseudo theories but lets not go off topic

Everything has an origin. There's a reason why Kings sit on a Throne and wear Crowns. People don't just implement such significant ideologies/designs without having a reason that is easily understood by the masses. And they are always rooted in factual observations.

Except when cultural constructs are built up over long periods of time. Factual observations are not always needed to create an ideology, all you need is a myth or story that may be entirely fictional.

Blaming grave robbers - is akin to suggesting the reason there is no physical proof of Jesus is because the Jews/Devil came and stole it all away. Its an awful argument.

I don't recall blaming grave robbers however your analogy is flawed. I believe you are referring to something Harte said.

He was correct tomb robbing occurred in AE as it did in every society where tombs exist. It is well known, one one tomb was not fully robbed and another Tuts was only partially robbed. So not sure what your point is.

Try this experiment; built something huge, put a lot of very valuable stuff in it - which is well known to the population - then leave it unguarded for several thousands years and let me know how that turns out.....

originally posted by: Scott Creighton


Furthermore--you are aware that there is highly compelling evidence at Giza (and elsewhere) that these structures were reworked in the 4th dynasty i.e. that they were already ancient in Khufu's time and Khufu was merely making repairs to these already ancient monuments.

SC

Well hello Scott

You didn't link to this 'highly compelling evidence', why is that? ....It's not because it all in your soon to publish book is it?

Just wondering

a reply to: Hanslune

one one tomb was not fully robbed and another Tuts was only partially robbed. So not sure what your point is.



Maybe Tutankhamuns tomb was made to look like it was robbed by Carter to avoid having to hand over the spoils as it was known that things were getting sold in 1915 with the cartouche of tut . Wonderfull things never got a knighthood very odd

10 documents an inscription and a 3 inch tall figurine.
Anything else from Khufu's wikipedia page you want to transfer?



Anthropomorphism - but I'm sure with your infinite grammatical wisdom you were able to interpret what I meant.


In what world has the EU Theory been disproven? Or is this just another one of your strange fantasies.


When you are able to come up with proof that any of the Early Pharaohs existed on Earth as human beings. I'll entertain what you have to say. But maybe you could provide some of your own theories rather that just bombarding threads trying to disprove everything everyone else says/does.

originally posted by: douglas5
a reply to: Hanslune

one one tomb was not fully robbed and another Tuts was only partially robbed. So not sure what your point is.



Maybe Tutankhamuns tomb was made to look like it was robbed by Carter to avoid having to hand over the spoils as it was known that things were getting sold in 1915 with the cartouche of tut . Wonderfull things never got a knighthood very odd

There have been a number of conspiracy theories on 'Carter robbing Tut's tomb, such as “Tutankhamun: The Exodus Conspiracy” by Andrew Collins and Chris Ogilvie-Herald, “The Search for the Gold of Tutankhamun” by Arnold Brackman” and “The Tutankhamun Deception” by Gerald O”Farrell”

In another more scholarly book, "In the Valley of the Kings: Howard Carter and the Mystery of King Tutankhamun’s Tomb” by Columbia University professor Daniel Meyerson. He acknowledges that Carter kept some pieces for himself and its all a long story. If you are interested in that I suggest reading that book.

The tut tomb robberies

entering the tomb

a reply to: Hanslune

Thank you for the link hanslune to Daniel Meyerson i had not heard of him before . one thing i do find rather strange is why the deaths head mask was found in a whisky crate uncatalogued at the time strange times indeed



It seems Scott does not like answering questions

originally posted by: douglas5
a reply to: Hanslune

Thank you for the link hanslune to Daniel Meyerson i had not heard of him before . one thing i do find rather strange is why the deaths head mask was found in a whisky crate uncatalogued at the time strange times indeed

It seems Scott does not like answering questions

He's in Scotland so there's a time difference and he's noted for answering only those questions that fit his narrow agenda.

a reply to: Hanslune

more like we are still waiting for harte to answer scotts questions

but i dont think harte can find that info on wiki....

so we might be waiting a while

o wait harte posted after scott asked him for evidence?

and harte ... o he just ignored scotts post all together... gottcha...