The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories (The Truth About MH17, Why Do People Not Want To See It?)

originally posted by: Mr Mask

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

" What is more logical? There are 100 reasons why it was not the Ukrainians, for starters, they don't even have a BUK."
They don't? Thats odd because I have seen numerous sources saying they did.

Can you cite some of those sources?

Why would you need sources? Twitter seems to be a legit enough source for you to pat yourself on the back and call yourself "aware and correct". Just pretend his source is Myspace or something. That should give you enough reason to think he is right.

MM

Oh..what are YOUR sources then?

I mean it's a little convenient to simply reject and deny evidence, even if it's right before your eyes?

AGAIN: The commander of the rebels himself posted a proud msg they shot down an alleged military plane.
And again I am asking..what more evidence do you even need? Are you just denying what's in front of your eyes for the sake of keeping up "alternative" theories?

Or..asked differently: For you, the notion that it is exactly what it is, that rebels shot down the plane by mistake, does NOT sound plausible? WHY exactly?

originally posted by: tridentblue
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

That's why people here like to throw around theories, gather lots of data, and chit chat about things before coming to any rock solid 1+1 conclusions. And I think that's a good thing!

Yes it basically is a good thing, but (and I see this very often) it can also distract and only lead away from the truth which SOMETIMES is indeed much simpler, more brutal.

Not every event happening in this world is a "false flag". This word alone makes me want to vomit. People go on shooting-sprees, military DO SHOOT DOWN CIVILIANS, people kill each other, terrorists plan terror acts etc. It's the effing real world.

Look at the 160+ pages in the MH17 thread? You believe those speculations, including decomposed bodies on the plane etc. help anyone to come to conclusion? They don't. The truth is often simpler than a far-fetched conspiracy theory. People are looking for truth, and speculative ideas (and most of them are VERY speculative) are not leading to the truth.

To be honest, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing about MH17 and MH370, even when they are not linked together. Every time I log in here I see at least 5 new threads devoted to this subject. Truth is, planes go down all the time for various reasons. Planes disappear too. They have since air travel begun. Lindbergh, Earhart even? The countless military planes that have just "disappeared." Bermuda Triangle, Dragons Triangle. MAYBE there is a conspiracy behind it. MAYBE there isn't. I lean more towards no conspiracy, but I'm not saying there isn't either.

Just try and leave this go as a freak accident. Maybe there was a conspiracy, but with all of the # going on in the world today, just ask yourself: "What are they trying to hide from me now, while spamming media, social sites, and more with this one plane?"

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Sometimes it's simple, but then there's the 900 pound gorilla in the room. Currently, about 90% of Russia's 147 million people are living in a totally different reality, following 1+1 simple reporting from their news media about how Ukraine did it, following a totally different trail of evidence and facts that proves that. I think this is what I was reading:
www.theguardian.com...
Would he have the high support if they believed what you are saying? No. So they are living in a different reality.
And that's a big part of the wars of the 20th century, different groups of people living in different realities constructed for them, all of which seem 1+1 obvious to them, to the point they will take up arms and kill each other.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed


AGAIN: The commander of the rebels himself posted a proud msg they shot down an alleged military plane.
And again I am asking..what more evidence do you even need?

Problem is; you can't be sure that was a tweet really posted by that commander on a twitter account really made by him or one of his comrads. It might be a fake tweet on a fake account, as has been done/used very very often before. The time it's existed and number of followers don't mean anything because intelligence between possible staged events like this aren't that stupid to leave anything by chance and will prepare things long time before hand.

Sorry for you, but you can't trust any information on the internet, certainly not concerning international political affairs. Not any. Nor any other news outlets, for that matter. Hard to get to reality huh.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

www.dailymail.co.uk... sile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

www.newsweek.com...
quote from source: The Ukrainian government—they have the toys. The Ukrainian government has quite a few of those Buks. [A surface-to-air missile system, with multiple launchers, developed by the Soviet Union in the late 1970s and that the Ukrainian government said Thursday was used for the downing.] The fact that it’s Russian-made isn’t evidence that Russia is behind the crash. Lots of former Soviet republics have Russian-made stuff... So Ukraine had the capacity. Say it was playing with its new toys and made a big mistake...That’s what happened in 2001. [when Ukraine mistakenly shot down a civilian airliner with a surface-to-air missile during a military exercise, killing all 78 passengers who were flying from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk.

www.washingtonsblog.com...
And their quote:As the Council on Foreign Relations notes:

All three regional actors—Russia, pro-Russian rebels of the “Donetsk People’s Republic,” and the Ukrainian government—had access or potential access to this weapons platform.

And if I can find this info,so can anyone. I can go on and on about other sources,but I'll leave you to investigate further.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

I believe that message has been debunked already. The dating was wrong on it. That info came out BEFORE any plane was shot down,that is why it got pulled. I don't want tweets and I don't want speculations. I want facts and only facts on this to get to the truth of the matter. Is Russia blameless? I doubt it. But Kiev had to know where the plane was. Why did they allow the pilot to deviate from the flight path? It was their control tower that was watching. The rebels don't have a control tower. If a pilot deviates from his course the control tower informs him and has him correct his path unless he has a good reason for it. There is no mention of the pilot contacting or being contacted by the Kiev control tower. So why is that? Its a "possible" false flag from Kiev to show the world "see there? We told you Russia is evil and causing trouble." Now is that the case? Well none of us know now do we? I think we should let our gov. know that before making threats or taking any action, everyone needs to take a deep breathe and wait for the tests and info to all come in.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

THANKYOU. I would give you applause if I could. It's about time somebody just told it like it is. The amount of people postulating on anything but the truth around here has been grating on my nerves lately. I almost considered quitting ATS completely but I think some people might enjoy that a little too much and I wouldn't want to give them the moral victory

It's good to see there are still sensible people around here who are interested in the facts, and not just solely what RT wants them to believe.

originally posted by: Moresby
I hate to tell you.

But THAT is also a conspiracy theory.

And, BTW, no matter what anyone tells you tweets are not facts.

Come on, you must admit the evidence supports this. They made a mistake and are probably really hurting about it. It seems they did not mean to do it but it also seems they did do it.

I dont think it will be long before the MSM get hold of this. They would love the fact the rebels did this.

Lets ponder some of the things leading up to this incident . Snipers shooting both protesters and police .I don't think we have a final report on that one yet .Innocent people involved . Nulands phone conversation where she says who they want to put in power . How about that building with all those innocent people murdered ..Still no final report .How about the many false claims including the Jew thing . Lots of this was tweeted and were not true as to what had happened . There have been many claims made and they always have that Hitler Putin in them . Just like Gadifie in Libya and Assad in Syria they vilify them in the western News and then blow them up . I think they even created a movie scene for the Libya strike . Oh yea that was a no fly zone .Then they blew the place up ..All on tweeter and MSM and most bought it hook line and sinker . And they got away with it .

here is all the facts as can be proven so far. an aircraft went down in the zone of war in the Ukrainian civil war. that is it, everything else at this point is speculations. be it from western sources, Russian sources, twitter accounts, facebook posts or the freaky haired guy saying it was the ancient aliens that did it. none of it can be called proof.

As for the Ukrainians having BUKs, I did a little research today but what we have there is INCONCLUSIVE.

There are pictures and footage where they show BUKs and some sources *claim* those are Ukrainian, but then other "sources" saying it's not, it's Russian ones from Crimea etc.

Some sources do indeed claim Ukrainians HAVE BUKs but tried to "sell" footage of their own BUKs as evidence that Russians have them. And so forth. So, the typical lies, propaganda etc. In other words: Whether we will ever know the truth....is questionable...

Sure there's lots of silly theories, but so was thinking the earth was round, many moons ago.

Since the tweet was deleted in about 30 seconds. This is not a tweet any of us can go to by a link to check for ourselves, . It's an image. Images can be doctored. I'm not saying it was never tweeted. It probably was. Probably isn't proof though.

I don't know who fired at it, or if it was even fired at at all. I just know what's being presented in the media.

I'm not an expert on Buk missiles and I doubt you are either.

I don't speak Russian to know if the translations are right.

I do not believe everything I hear or see in the media. The same goes for every conspiracy theory. I make up my own mind.

This event has many facets to it, so it's deserving of numerous threads to discuss each one.

As long as nobody is disrespecting the victims during discussions, then people have a right to discuss and learn from others and decide for themselves which story they find most believable.

I'm not sure if aliens have been blamed yet. Have they?

It's the weird dissonance we now have that we live in this era of Information War isn't it?

Doesn't matter if you're telling the truth, so long as you put out a ton of propaganda and nobody contradicts you, people who want to believe you will believe you.

RT illustrates this perfectly. But the whole media setup in Russia is the same. There is now one State-Owned media empire, and everything the release is on-message.

So it seems to create this... critical mass of apparent certainty. So anybody who is predisposed to think America Is Evil, can plug into this alternate reality offered up by the Russian media, and opt into this whole weirdly altered reality. Much like people who watch Fox News live in a weird altered reality too.

The facts OP posts speak for themselves though. Likewise the behaviour of the seperatists and of Moscow. Completely guilty behaviour.

Oops. Double post.

Not sure how that happened. Apologies.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Mr Mask

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

" What is more logical? There are 100 reasons why it was not the Ukrainians, for starters, they don't even have a BUK."
They don't? Thats odd because I have seen numerous sources saying they did.

Can you cite some of those sources?

Why would you need sources? Twitter seems to be a legit enough source for you to pat yourself on the back and call yourself "aware and correct". Just pretend his source is Myspace or something. That should give you enough reason to think he is right.

MM

Oh..what are YOUR sources then?

I mean it's a little convenient to simply reject and deny evidence, even if it's right before your eyes?

AGAIN: The commander of the rebels himself posted a proud msg they shot down an alleged military plane.
And again I am asking..what more evidence do you even need? Are you just denying what's in front of your eyes for the sake of keeping up "alternative" theories?

Or..asked differently: For you, the notion that it is exactly what it is, that rebels shot down the plane by mistake, does NOT sound plausible? WHY exactly?

the commander DID shoot down a military plane within 24 hrs previous to mh17. I am fairly certain this is the event HE IS talking about. I dont think he is refering to mh17 at all. I think you might be mixing and matching events to tell a different story.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Mr Mask

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

" What is more logical? There are 100 reasons why it was not the Ukrainians, for starters, they don't even have a BUK."
They don't? Thats odd because I have seen numerous sources saying they did.

Can you cite some of those sources?

Why would you need sources? Twitter seems to be a legit enough source for you to pat yourself on the back and call yourself "aware and correct". Just pretend his source is Myspace or something. That should give you enough reason to think he is right.

MM

Oh..what are YOUR sources then?

I mean it's a little convenient to simply reject and deny evidence, even if it's right before your eyes?

AGAIN: The commander of the rebels himself posted a proud msg they shot down an alleged military plane.
And again I am asking..what more evidence do you even need? Are you just denying what's in front of your eyes for the sake of keeping up "alternative" theories?

Or..asked differently: For you, the notion that it is exactly what it is, that rebels shot down the plane by mistake, does NOT sound plausible? WHY exactly?

Sigh...you really are not informed on all the false reports and operations within war
times throughout the ages eh?

My sources are all world reports.

Do I need more than a tweet that looks like it was planted? Yes.

Do I jump on alternative stories just to go against the offical story? No, I am a debunker.

Do I think you are new to this and easy to fool with fisher-price-my-first-smoke-screen-tactics? overly, yes.

Are you aware false twitter posts have been used in no less than 5 instances in the last 5 years?

Are you aware that it is "you" who is eating up spoon fed stories just to agree with them and feel vindicated?

Good luck eating up every tweet and official report. I have a better grasp on recent history "and the government use of Twitter to sell stories and false reports in the recent few years (Iran)" to not mock those who question the validity of Twitter reports.

Am I saying the official story is incorrect? No. Am I saying intelligence agencies spend billions a year to fool people like you daily? yes.

Your trust in these operations and reports is what makes you an easy target for propaganda.

Again I ask you...would you question the Gulf of Tonkin incident? You most likely would not since reports from that incident were much more solid than two tweets on a social network that is easy to control and abuse for nefarious reasons.

As far as I am concerned, when I see a civilian make a thread like you have here, I roll my eyes and think "good little drone...eat it up."
MM

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed
As for the Ukrainians having BUKs, I did a little research today but what we have there is INCONCLUSIVE.

So wait...you're telling me you made this thread an entire day before doing research on Ukraine's BUKs? Really? Wow...ya you are so are informed and this thread has no weakness behind its logic at all (sarcasm....in case you failed to see that)

Sigh. You are the perfect citizen for today's powers. You question nothing, you research nothing, you speak loudly against those questioning, and you have zero understanding of how an information war works.

Oh, and lets not forget you think Twitter is a solid source for information.

Man...farmers in Syria have more insight on these tactics than you. You must spend a lot of time in front of TV.

MM

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

This thread and the posts therein are proof of your OP in a beautiful twist of equal parts irony and foreshadowing.

Awesome!

God Bless,