Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

how were these gamma rays produced exactly? or is that too far off topic?

By climbing the metaphorical ladder that Aphorism thinks doesn't exist.

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

how were these gamma rays produced exactly? or is that too far off topic?

By climbing the metaphorical ladder that Aphorism thinks doesn't exist.

thats not an answer.

a reply to: BlueMule

If that is true, then scientists should not be seeing astounding things when they study the brains of meditating monks. But they do.

Scientists this scientists that. If you use them as an authority, then you are below them on your ladder.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

Hmm name calling. I haven't heard that one before. Oh wait, actually I have.

Is that the extent of you? Or is this a common mystic-loving trait?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

how were these gamma rays produced exactly? or is that too far off topic?

By climbing the metaphorical ladder that Aphorism thinks doesn't exist.

thats not an answer.

Here is what counts. Meditation isn't just about sitting there staring at the back of your eyelids. If it was, science would be able to tell. The control group of college students would be the same if not better, because intellectual academic study is itself a form of meditation.

But studies show it is an inferior form.

a reply to: BlueMule

Aphorism has been refuted many times over. He (gender assumption acknowledged) need not bother.

I think we'll leave that up to the readers, shall we? You have been playing your roll as the spiritual authority quite well.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

If that is true, then scientists should not be seeing astounding things when they study the brains of meditating monks. But they do.

Scientists this scientists that. If you use them as an authority, then you are below them on your ladder.

It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to expertise and evidence. Scientific and scholarly expertise is valuable to society. It seems they are valuable to you to, if and when they support your position.

I don't care about being above or below anyone on the ladder. It's not a pissing contest. We're all on the same team Clark.

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

how were these gamma rays produced exactly? or is that too far off topic?

By climbing the metaphorical ladder that Aphorism thinks doesn't exist.

thats not an answer.

Here is what counts. Meditation isn't just about sitting there staring at the back of your eyelids. If it was, science would be able to tell. The control group of college students would be the same if not better, because intellectual academic study is itself a form of meditation.

But studies show it is an inferior form.

from my understanding, meditation is about willfully activating functions that your brain is already capable of. its not supernatural or mystical, its the same principle as slowing your heart rate.

a reply to: BlueMule

It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to expertise and evidence. Scientific and scholarly expertise is valuable to society. It seems they are valuable to you to, if and when they support your position.

same might be said of us all whether we realize it or not. we have a natural tendency to pay more attention to the stuff we agree with. maybe its a survival instinct.

I don't care about being above or below anyone on the ladder. It's not a pissing contest. We're all on the same team Clark.

From my eyes you do seem to care. Your entire argument against me is how you and people like you are more spiritual than little old me, a regular joe. That's the extent of your refutation.

About meditation. I bet if they tested a group of people told to stare at the back of their eyelids, and a group of people told to meditate, the results would be the same.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

from my understanding, meditation is about willfully activating functions that your brain is already capable of. its not supernatural or mystical, its the same principle as slowing your heart rate.

It can be practiced by people without reference to 'supernatural' (whatever that is) or mystical lingo, if you're allergic to that kind of conceptual framework. Just like how Buddhism can be expressed through a cinematic framework like Fight Club.

originally posted by: WhiteHat

If with your question you meant to help the mankind on a grand scale, like making world peace, or mass healings or bringing a new religion to the world, the answer is that whoever really practice spirituality with commitment and seriosity will snap out of these dreams of grandor very fast.

I wanted to say that I also disagree with this. While this concept is popular among "spiritual circles," I am not sure it is an accurate assumption. It sounds a whole lot like the programming present in many religions, and that is that we can not affect change. Some even take it so far as to claim that making change only shows a lack of spirituality. This idea is compounded by the assumption that change is solely derived from the individuals perception of scarcity. In the end, I think it becomes little more than a personal projection.

Aph covered it quite well, but I wanted to add my own take in addition to that. It does not always boil down to delusions of grandeur, as we change the world with literally *everything* we do. Furthermore, we change it with everything we do NOT do as well. It is a matter of understanding how this change occurs, rather than thinking such pursuits are nothing more than a mere delusion. Then, we can use it to plant seeds that have a much higher chance of sprouting.

Exploring the very base of our perception can open a door that allows us to see the foundation behind this change, and with further exploration, can lead to us using these ideas in everything from social interactions to technology. Once we incorporate such premises within our cultural story, we have a societal foundation that is based on change, rather than one that resists it at all costs regardless of detriment.

originally posted by: Aphorism

I don't care about being above or below anyone on the ladder. It's not a pissing contest. We're all on the same team Clark.

From my eyes you do seem to care. Your entire argument against me is how you and people like you are more spiritual than little old me, a regular joe. That's the extent of your refutation.

My entire argument against you is based on three things. The evidence of science, the pertinant scholarship, and my own personal experience with this stuff. My experience surpases yours, but that doesn't mean I want to make you my servant. There are many people on ATS whose mystical experience surpases mine. I have a lot to learn. But I don't bow to them because their experience is greater, and I don't expect you to bow to me because my experience is greater.

I'm not better or worse than them, you, or anyone. I'm not out to recruit followers or make money. I don't want to be anyone's guru. I just want to help you, a fellow human being, to find his way out of the turbulent waters for only one reason: because I love you. But that doesn't mean I'm not annoyed with you.

Do you think I'm trying to recruit you into a religion and milk your resources? I'm not selling anything. I don't run a church. I'm not trying to beat you into submission with trojan horses so that I can exploit you.

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm

from my understanding, meditation is about willfully activating functions that your brain is already capable of. its not supernatural or mystical, its the same principle as slowing your heart rate.

It can be practiced by people without reference to 'supernatural' (whatever that is) or mystical lingo, if you're allergic to that kind of conceptual framework. Just like how Buddhism can be expressed through a cinematic framework like Fight Club.

a lot of your meditation stuff seems to involve a lot of mystical elements tho. starting with psi and consciousness, your use of these concepts seems to launch the reader into a world of hugely dependent on how they think and what they want, which makes it difficult to discern between a product of imagination and a hitherto undefined force of nature. i guess im saying that a lot of your claims and explanations dont differ a whole lot from the garbage you find on third-eye and chakra-therapy blogs.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm

from my understanding, meditation is about willfully activating functions that your brain is already capable of. its not supernatural or mystical, its the same principle as slowing your heart rate.

It can be practiced by people without reference to 'supernatural' (whatever that is) or mystical lingo, if you're allergic to that kind of conceptual framework. Just like how Buddhism can be expressed through a cinematic framework like Fight Club.

a lot of your meditation stuff seems to involve a lot of mystical elements tho. starting with psi and consciousness, your use of these concepts seems to launch the reader into a world of hugely dependent on how they think and what they want, which makes it difficult to discern between a product of imagination and a hitherto undefined force of nature. i guess im saying that a lot of your claims and explanations dont differ a whole lot from the garbage you find on third-eye and chakra-therapy blogs.

Mystical elements? I think your concept of 'mystical' is very different from mine. If consciousness is a mystical element, then what are you doing with it in your skull? Get it out!

My concept of 'mysticism' is based on study of scholarship. Most people get their concept of mysticism from tabloids, Hollywood, comic books, the New Age section of the bookstore, and junk blogs.

Where do you get yours frrom?

Personally I'm just out to be an asshole.. but seriously, how many times do people have to present evidence that meditation has all kinds of verified effects? You're supposed to be empirical right? What's the problem then..

The problem is skeptics nitpicking on everything that doesn't conform to their expectations, there's always some explanation, always something to grab hold of.

You want us to conjure up a ghost for you? Do some work yourself, I remember you claiming you had experienced enlightenment in a previous thread, so much for that.
You're denouncing all spiritual traditions, but have you even been willing to practice?

Tell you what, if I ever do activate some blatant and impressive siddhi I'll show you
Otherwise we'll have to meet in some other capacity beyond this life
If that comes to pass I'll be the immature one gloating, perhaps quite contrary to spiritual protocol..

a reply to: BlueMule

my definition of mystical pertains to mysticism:

belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

i reassert my earlier assessment, that a lot of your claims and explanations dont differ a whole lot from the garbage you find on third-eye and chakra-therapy blogs.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

if your just out to be an asshole then i can afford to ignore you until you stop. vaya con dios. dont forget to pick up a ghost on your way back if and when you decide to return.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: BlueMule

my definition of mystical pertains to mysticism:

belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

i reassert my earlier assessment, that a lot of your claims and explanations dont differ a whole lot from the garbage you find on third-eye and chakra-therapy blogs.

That's a junk definition. It has no basis in academic scholarship or empirical science or personal experience. It is based on ignorance and it panders to prejudice.