The Coming Caliphate who will it Love?

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Maybe there are some Salafi that aren’t intolerant religious bigots, fine and dandy I’m glad.
Butt the ones I have known and the morons who have ruined the reputation of Islam from the Mideast are the most prominent.

The ones who destroy Sufi and Buddhist shrines, murder people who don’t believe what they believe, stone people, distort the concept of Jihad, disrespect other faiths, love only other Muslims...the essence of what these religious bigots espouse are the ones who have shown their ugly face to the world and the ones who are the worst exemplars of Islam the world has ever known....And have done more harm to the reputation of the religion than the devil himself.

Yes i agree we refer to them as khuaraij or Takfiri Muslims.

Definitely a cancer to Islam.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

That is exactly what the salafi are. EXACTLY.

Do you know anything about the original schools of islam? The Sunni were the Hanafi, and Maliki, and Shafi, and Hanbali schools, and they were actual schools with a particular interpretation because they followed the scholars who started the schools who those schools were named after.

IN Sunni Islam in the mid 19th century there was a big influx of western culture being brought into everyday life in the middle east - different things like music and dress began to change by the youth. Going away from the traditional towards something a bit more liberal, if you can ever consider anything in the middle east liberal.

Teachers who started the salafi movement wanted to try and get back what they were afraid the ME was loosing, and that was our cultural identity .... with religion and culture so wrapped up together in the ME, the salafi movement was born, an idea to save the ME from loosing its own culture and adopting western cultures and practices.

It's puritanical - and it really is - the think they are following the "pure" Islam. Now if you can tell what "pure" islam is when it sure wasn't taught by ANY of the original scholars in Islam (or that would have been one of the original schools of thought) and believe you can tell Muslims in the ME that they need to be living under sharia law, when the majority doesn't even agree on what constitutes sharia and/or how it should be applied in today's society, because you are following the only pure Islam to exist - well, that's a serious problem.

Anything "pure" sees itself as having the exclusive keys to the truth, and sees everyone else as following a belief that is then by nature "impure". When it cannot get you to agree to all their "purity" they try and take you out. ISIS is just as salafi as you... they are following a pure Islam according to their belief too. It's all that purity that makes them feel okay to murder other people.

In order to "purify" that society these pure followers of religion inflict their "purity" on, they take out everything they see as being impure. Which, is usually most of the people in it who refuse to agree they are as pure as they believe they are. That's why whenever such purity raises its ugly head people die in the thousands upon thousands.

a reply to: OpinionatedB




........*SHAKE MY HEAD* ......

you truly need to study Islam ...

Everything you just stated about the salafi is your innovation and is lacking education chalked withe lies.
Classic shia move.

You say the salafi are the ISIS ? LIES the Isis are of khuaraij Aqeeta ! HOWMANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POINT THIS OUT TO YOU?
I am salafi and I am TELLING you these ISIS dogs are killing sunni and shia Muslims and you want to compare me to them??
Here's more proof just in case it didn't sink in to your thick head.


Let me give you an explanation from the grand mutfi about salafi!

What is As-Salafiyyah and what is your opinion regarding it?Answer:

All praise is due to Allaah alone, and peace and blessings be upon the Messenger, his family and his Companions.

To proceed:

"As-Salafiyyah" is an attachment or affiliation to the 'Salaf'. And "The Salaf" are the Companions of the Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu 'alaihi wassallam) and the Imaams of guidance (may Allaah be pleased with them) from the first three generations, those whose goodness Allaah's Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) bore witness to in his statement:

"The best of mankind is my generation, then those who follow them, then those who follow them. Then there will come people where bearing witness of one of them will precede his taking an oath and his taking an oath will be his bearing witness."

[Reported by Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 'Musnad', 'Al-Bukhaaree', and Muslim]*

And "The Salafiyyoon [or Salafees]" is the plural of "Salafi", an attachment or affiliation to the Salaf, and its meaning has already preceded above - and they are those who traverse upon the Methodology (Manhaj) of the Salaf in following the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah [of the Messenger of Allaah], and inviting to them, and acting upon them, and they are, due to this, Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah.

* Imaam Ahmad: (4/426). Al-Bukhaaree: (2651). Muslim: (2535).

Permanent Committee for Research and Verdicts
Shaykh `Abdul-`Azeez Bin Baz
"Fataawa Al-Lajnah Ad-Daa'imah": (2/165

Here's another one right from the prophet's mouth (pbuh)

• The Prophet said to Fatimah: "So fear Allaah and have patience. And I am the best Salaf (predecessor) for you." [Muslim (2450)]

I am sick of trying to explain this to you..

May ALLAH forgive your ignorance and guide you.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Remember the video from ISIS = those two youth Nasser Muthana and Reyaad Khan from Cardiff, you know they attended Al-Manar Centre - which happens to be a salafi mosque.

They are salafi, just like you are. Groomed and brainwashed to do what Muslims born and living in the countries they fight in refuse to do, and that is destroy the people there trying to rebuild a caliphate.

I don't make this stuff up, I don't find it fun or even a little bit amusing.

Some day should my husband so choose he will tell you HIS experiences with the salafi.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere
ISIS is just as salafi as you... they are following a pure Islam according to their belief too. It's all that purity that makes them feel okay to murder other people.

Yes Wahabism and radical branches of Salafism are dangerous. But I think you are a bit unfair towards "LightningStrikesHere".
We do not consider Salafists or even Wahabies as Kafir (infidel). They are all muslims. Corrupted governments have made some special radical branches in Islam. There are such branches in other sects too.
The problem is that some of them consider other muslims some polytheists that are committing the big shirk. This is the danger. Takfir is the danger.

a reply to: maes2

No, they are not kafir as its not my place to say that.

However, they are extremists of the most dangerous sort. They take young men here in the west and brainwash them into their beliefs, its easier because they don't know arabic, and then set them out with goals and plans and continue the grooming as time goes on.

LIghtningStrikesHere is one of those converts.

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
a reply to: OpinionatedB
Everything you just stated about the salafi is your innovation and is lacking education chalked withe lies.
Classic shia move.
You say the salafi are the ISIS ? LIES the Isis are of khuaraij Aqeeta ! HOWMANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POINT THIS OUT TO YOU?
I am salafi and I am TELLING you these ISIS dogs are killing sunni and shia Muslims and you want to compare me to them??
Here's more proof just in case it didn't sink in to your thick head.

We should know that all true muslims are against innovation, including Shias. All muslims believe that they should find the truth among the Righteous Salaf. This is what all muslims are doing. But we know that the problem existed among the Salafs. They were not unanimous in all concepts and there are many wrong hadithes among muslim books so that they should be careful. Neither Sunnis nor Shias are not enemies of Salafists. But the point is that which Salaf should be followed. If all Salafs were righteous then why Koran is speaking about Munafiqs so much. Were not Munafiqs (hypocrites) among Salafs too. Those who Koran calls them the cursed tree.
So as you are yourself open minded we all believe that muslims need internal communications. Of course even Shias use some Hadithes of Sahih muslim or Bukhari there is no problem however they do not believe that those books are perfect and completely Sahih. As a matter of fact Shias even do not call their own books as Sahih. Because they know they are just collections and When they use the Hadithes they should not be contrary to Koran and the chain of narrations should be reliable. Muslims are 90 percent alike. really. I have seen Wahabies who think Shias have Korans other than the Koran of other muslims. This is not true. Shias use the same Koran even its writing is from Othman Taha.
No muslim should become proud of what he knows, Salafi, Sunni, Shia ,..... This is why muslims want God to guide them to the straight path, many times, every day.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: maes2
No, they are not kafir as its not my place to say that.
However, they are extremists of the most dangerous sort. They take young men here in the west and brainwash them into their beliefs, its easier because they don't know arabic, and then set them out with goals and plans and continue the grooming as time goes on.
LIghtningStrikesHere is one of those converts.

I see. You are somehow right. But I am sure those who convert to Islam they are after the truth. LIghtningStrikesHere is not radical. Not all Salafists are radical.
Those radical groups haunt people from west and send them to the middle east as a killer machine. And western governments just support them. As a matter of fact I was shocked when LIghtningStrikesHere introduced himself as a Salafi. But after that I thank God that he is not a radical. We are all responsible of what we believe in and we will be asked about our beliefs one by one.

a reply to: maes2

No, not all salafist are radical, if they were we would call them terrorists and not just wahabbis. If all of them were jihadists then they would loose that bridge to the west where they get so much aid for their atrocities in Muslim lands.

I don't have the finesse you do, nor believe much in unity as we have tried such things and it never goes well for us, every time we reach out our hand in brotherly love and care they bite it.

My preference is to quietly practice my faith, knowing they believe me kafir (I have been called that more times than I can even count in my life to the point I figure to them that is just what I am) And leave everyone alone.

Except one thing... those who will do others harm - those who take young men ripe for radicalization and radicalism them, I will fight tooth and nail. They have no place in my heart. People who wish to practice their faith quietly as do I - are my friend and my brother, no matter their faith.

I think someone who converts to Islam does so out of love of God, but if they have been converted into a harmful sect, I feel we should say so - praying every second that it's not too late to save them.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: maes2
I don't have the finesse you do, nor believe much in unity as we have tried such things and it never goes well for us, every time we reach out our hand in brotherly love and care they bite it.
My preference is to quietly practice my faith, knowing they believe me kafir (I have been called that more times than I can even count in my life to the point I figure to them that is just what I am) And leave everyone alone.

It is sad. I wonder why the truth is always alone and oppressed. You know I can not say anything but again patience.

a reply to: maes2

Ah heck.... you know I'm fairly patient. Sometimes I fail in that, but...all in all not so so bad.

And you know life isn't bad at all these days. Nothing to be sad about... everyone has their trials in life. But God gives us our respite too from time to time.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

when they were patient, we made from them leaders, guiding with our command and they were certain of our verses. (24) on the day of resurrection your lord will distinguish between them that on which they varied. --Koran 32:24

Moses 136 times Abraham 68 times Noah 42 times Maryam 34 times Jesus 25 times prophet of islam 5 times (peace be upon all of them) is repeated in Koran.
Koran tells the story of Israel tribe a lot. Because muslims should learn from the history of Israel tribe. What happened in Israel tribe it happened or happens in Ishmael tribe too.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: maes2

No, they are not kafir as its not my place to say that.

However, they are extremists of the most dangerous sort. They take young men here in the west and brainwash them into their beliefs, its easier because they don't know arabic, and then set them out with goals and plans and continue the grooming as time goes on.

LIghtningStrikesHere is one of those converts.

This will be my final post to you.

My patients has ran out with you regarding this issue.

Your lack of intelligence and comprehension is prohibiting you from obviously understanding that their is "radical salafism" and true salafisim who only take the most accurate information from Islam. Meaning we don't fallow or exsept knowledge and hadith that is weak. We go back to the shahba (first three generations after the prophet pbuh) why? Because that's when the knowledge contain within Islam was pure and not infected with innovation .

Because of innovation we have different sec today ,example , shia,Sufi,wahabi, ect ext.

You say that salafi go around saying everyone are disbelievers Nay ! This is not correct this would be takfri.

What your doing is putting me in the class of "radical salafiism" how dare you!

Haven't you read all my post denouncing khuaraij aqeeta? And radical Muslims?

If I was the salafi you claim to me be wouldn't I be defending them? (Radical salafi like Osama bin laden)
.
Our debate started out as you accusing me of saying things I didn't say.

From their you made false claims that only the "shia" were fighting the ISIS . I proved you wrong again.

You then decided to attack me insisting I am being brainwashed and that i am connected to radical muslims I am not ! Nor will I ever be!

I am going to prove you wrong yet again!

The true salaf are not radical Muslims , they are not khuaraij they are not takfiri .
Just because certain groups claim they are salafi does not mean they are !
Osama bin laden claimed he was salafi!!

And here is what a great salafi shakh had to say about that!



Also! Aside from the corruption in Saudi Arabia. All the top scholar's are salafi ! The grand mutfi is salafi!

This will be my final post here , your welcome insut me as much as you would like ! But know this, it is not I who is off the straight path

Salaam alikume !

Insha Allah we can maybe somehow find common ground.


:ETA that white building in that video was a salafi university , yeah....the shia destroyed it because they didn't understand true salafiyyya
Much like you.

Sad really...

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Your lack of intelligence and comprehension is prohibiting you from obviously understanding that their is "radical salafism" and true salafisim who only take the most accurate information from Islam. Meaning we don't fallow or exsept knowledge and hadith that is weak. We go back to the shahba (first three generations after the prophet pbuh) why? Because that's when the knowledge contain within Islam was pure and not infected with innovation .

Walking out on a shaky limb here, so bear with me.

OB's "lack of intelligence and comprehension" stems from, in part, her acquaintance with a fine young man who many years ago was "converted" to (assumed, implied, and labeled) "Salafism". In other words, her opinion is borne of having seen the elephant.

That same fine young man of which I speak found that the Salafism he was enmeshed in had not much to do with the Salaf at all. So much so that he walked away from Islam, and will never, ever call himself Muslim again. Instead, he leans on Adam, Ibrahim, and those of that era, and eschews modern "Islam" altogether. For that, he has been pronounced "kafr", and even threatened with death on one or two occasions.

Is he less Muslim because he follows the footsteps of Ibrahim? Perhaps. I suppose that is for those who call themselves "Muslim" to decide on an individual basis. OB calls him a "Christian", even though he doesn't believe as most Christians do - he doesn't believe that Jesus WAS God, and finds that notion to be entirely illogical. Still, he follows the value of Jesus' teachings as well, and so may, perhaps, be labeled a "christian" in some sense.

Does that make him "less Muslim"? That's for you to decide on your own. I have it on good authority that he doesn't much care whether you think him Muslim or kafr - he believes what he does, and will not be swayed, even by death threats.

originally posted by: maes2

a reply to: OpinionatedB

when they were patient, we made from them leaders, guiding with our command and they were certain of our verses. (24) on the day of resurrection your lord will distinguish between them that on which they varied. --Koran 32:24

Moses 136 times Abraham 68 times Noah 42 times Maryam 34 times Jesus 25 times prophet of islam 5 times (peace be upon all of them) is repeated in Koran.
Koran tells the story of Israel tribe a lot. Because muslims should learn from the history of Israel tribe. What happened in Israel tribe it happened or happens in Ishmael tribe too.

very good,,
"What happened in Israel tribe it happened or happens in Ishmael tribe too."
bingo,,,

remember,,

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.

but with Christ having put an end to that curse,, 2000 years ago,,

"And that he might reconcile both unto God
in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

I ask what progress has there been,,not a lot but some hope.
Hope,, and through hope, long suffering, and patience.
soon.

originally posted by: [t=18074434]nenothtu[/post]

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Your lack of intelligence and comprehension is prohibiting you from obviously understanding that their is "radical salafism" and true salafisim who only take the most accurate information from Islam. Meaning we don't fallow or exsept knowledge and hadith that is weak. We go back to the shahba (first three generations after the prophet pbuh) why? Because that's when the knowledge contain within Islam was pure and not infected with innovation .

Walking out on a shaky limb here, so bear with me.

OB's "lack of intelligence and comprehension" stems from, in part, her acquaintance with a fine young man who many years ago was "converted" to (assumed, implied, and labeled) "Salafism". In other words, her opinion is borne of having seen the elephant.

That same fine young man of which I speak found that the Salafism he was enmeshed in had not much to do with the Salaf at all. So much so that he walked away from Islam, and will never, ever call himself Muslim again. Instead, he leans on Adam, Ibrahim, and those of that era, and eschews modern "Islam" altogether. For that, he has been pronounced "kafr", and even threatened with death on one or two occasions.

Is he less Muslim because he follows the footsteps of Ibrahim? Perhaps. I suppose that is for those who call themselves "Muslim" to decide on an individual basis. OB calls him a "Christian", even though he doesn't believe as most Christians do - he doesn't believe that Jesus WAS God, and finds that notion to be entirely illogical. Still, he follows the value of Jesus' teachings as well, and so may, perhaps, be labeled a "christian" in some sense.

Does that make him "less Muslim"? That's for you to decide on your own. I have it on good authority that he doesn't much care whether you think him Muslim or kafr - he believes what he does, and will not be swayed, even by death threats.

I can't really give an opinion here , because I don't know who this "young man" is or who he took knowledge from ? Osama bin laden claimed to be salafi , but its obvious he was not..his actions were that of khuawarij and takfri.

Allot of Muslims don't fully understand salafiyaah .
If salafi means fallowing the knowledge of the prophet (pbuh) and shahaba (first three generations after the prophet) this would be sunna .
So in essence salafi is sunna or sunni .

So this leaves the door open for people to claim they are salafi.
But being salafi isint just a name.

Part of it is finding truth ! By fact! A lot of Muslims disagree with salafi because they question the authenticity of certain hadith ect ect .

Its hard to explain.

Let's see if can give you an example .

We have two ponds of knowlwge the names are Quran and Muhammad . well Quran and Mohammed gave clear instructions on how to drink from them to gain knowledge. Part of that instruction was to stay on the strait path to the pond of knowledge . but over the years people started to deviate from the strait path and forge their own path. This causesed many pathways to open up to the ponds of knowledge .
So much so that the original path became hard to see and fallow.... You say what's wrong with new paths being formed to ponds of knowledge?
Well, if people would have stayed on the strait path like Quran & Muhammad explained they would have found that on the way to the ponds of knowledge was more instruction on how to understand the knowledge of what they drink from. ... So to be salafi is to be on the straight path and restore it along the way..

Hope this makes sense ..

Humbly LSH

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Well, here's part of the problem - no one alive today - NO ONE - walked with Mohammed or his companions. What they have instead is a collection of sayings... in fact, SEVERAL different collections of sayings. So we have one over here that says "this hadith is trustworthy, but that one is untrustworthy", and then we have another over there who believes just the opposite. People get to pick and choose which collections they want to find trustworthy, and different people pick different ones.

Because of that, no one alive today can say for certain that they really ARE salafist, because none of them take their knowledge first hand, as none of them walked with Mohammed or the first three generations. Christians have the same problem - since none of them walked with Jesus, ALL of them get their information at best second-hand, and often even farther removed. What we get in situations like that are people who are convinced they are walking "the only True path" - but being convinced of it does not make it a fact... it is STILL an opinion. That devolves into sectarianism, which both Islam and Christianity are rife with.

Without that first-hand knowledge, which none today have, no one can be certain that their path has not been "innovated" at some point along the way. NONE, not even professed Salafists. The best they can do is try to make educated guesses, but none can be certain.

Be that as it may, ALL must pick their own paths, and NONE has any room to determine the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the path of another, or pass judgement upon it. Judgement belongs to God alone, and He stands in need of no Helpers. They should instead, IMO, concentrate on ensuring their own, as best they can.

ETA: To hear him tell it, he "took knowledge" from the Qur'an alone, and did not much get into the battle over this ahadith or that. Based upon that, he looked around and found "Muslims" claiming to be followers of the first three generations, but acting decidedly differently from what is recorded of those days, particularly the FIRST generation in the Qur'an.

It left a foul taste in his mouth, and soured his stomach for Islam.

Why is it that there is no clear message that followers can cling too and be justified in their beliefs of that religion. By nature the simple way of life seems to be a more rightous path. With christianity we have the ten commandments and that gives much weight on what our GOD expects from us. When his son came and was givin the power to be just as his father he forfilled the law and when pressed on how to live he boiled it down in a way that the negative could even understand. Love GOD love yourself and your neighbor as yourself and made that the whole of the law. So why is it that islam is so complicated that it can not be summed up in a simple manner for folks like me. I hope that by the responses here in thread can domonstrate that much confusion is found within. Even lsh has stated that it has taken him 2+ yrs to reach a point where he understands how the majority get it wrong. In the different sects of christianity when in constant disagreement can be silenced by the ten commandments or Jesus words. Was islam designed to create the state it's followers have been in for so many years of disagreement to the point of killing?

a reply to: nenothtu

My "Lack of Knowledge" as LightningStrikesHere says does not only stem from that young man, as fine a man as he still is...

I have sat in rooms with the Muslim Brotherhood, heard them speak regarding their religion - them thinking I was in agreement with their kind and unoffended and unworried about my hearing their speech.

I have heard the unadulterated opinions of many a various professed salafi about politics, the U.S., the ME, commerce and business, Americans, their opinions on the JIhadists and those who don't believe in such things...

Many many many a conversation I have been there for... too numerous to count now. I have sat and heard how evil Americans are, how they wished Americans would die and how they would like to kill them... all the while they were living in America and taking gainful employment here...Yet, many worse things than even that I have had heard out of the mouths of professed salafi's.

I have heard and seen too much from these salafi to think any other than what I now do. I have heard their teachers, read their writings, conversed with all these at length....debated them on religious matters... and listened to their sick and evil thoughts...

yeah Neno, it wasn't just that young man who helped my opinion. It was the fact that I saw the public speech vary so greatly with the private speech...Amazing how great they say they are, how non-violent they speak when in public, but when in private there is a bloodlust and deep hatred that is second only to the devil (Ibless) himself, if not rival him (la)

I may be shia, but I am intelligent enough to know when to keep my mouth shut about what it is I believe...

a reply to: deadeyedick

There IS a "clear message", a clear path... many of them, in fact... but only ONE is the right one. We should not confuse "clear" with "right", as the road to hell is paved with good intentions and clear road signs. It's not for ME, however, to determine whether yours, or LightningStrikesHere's, or OpinionateB's, or maes2's, or ANYONE ELSE'S is the "right" one. I'm responsible only for my choices, not any of yours, and I have no say at all in what any of the rest believe, what path they walk. that is between them selves and their God.

I will neither denigrate nor kill ANY man or woman over the choices they make concerning religion, or lack thereof. Those choices are not mine to make for them, and in fact I believe that if I tried, I WOULD then be responsible for them, and have to answer to God for that.

It's not a responsibility I want. I have enough problems looking out for myself.

The Shi'a have a saying: "to you be your religion, and to me mine". Maybe I'm a closet Shi'ite...

... and maybe I'm just me, without labels.

Sure, the saying is found in the Qur'an, but the only mouth I've ever hard if come out of was Shi'ite.