Suffering

a reply to: ketsuko

I think God created a universe that simply is, neither good nor bad, and it operates by the rules as He set them down.

Do you have a special reason why you think that is so?

He could violate those rules, and when He does, we call it a miracle.

How do you know that miracles are not done within the laws that exist?

Christ's resurrection was on such occurrence . . .

Of course what God did in that event is beyond what we can do, and that is what makes Him God.

but if God violated His own rules all the time, . . .

It would be weird if God violated His rules ever.

. . . it would be like what happens to a child whose parents never establish and stick to rules and routines.

What?
Are you saying that we would be spoiled if things were any better?
And do you think God is doing us a favor by making us suffer?
When Jesus said, "The poor you will have with you always", was he saying that it served them right?
He was quoting Deuteronomy 15:11, and the rest of the verse is a commandment to be open handed towards the poor and needy.

Yeah millions of children suffering right now, 1000's dying every minute or so but that's a good thing right?

Gotta make the most of a bad situation, silver lining and all that jazz....

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Yeah millions of children suffering right now, 1000's dying every minute or so but that's a good thing right?



Gotta make the most of a bad situation, silver lining and all that jazz....

From our view it is not a good thing at all and you should add all those aborted fetus to your list. The point of the thread is to ponder the possibility that maybe we do not have all the story. That maybe we are spirits too and not just simple flesh and that some force besides just us being unknowingly evil is helping this suffering along for the benefit of us on the other side. Honestly i hope that this is the case cause our division runs deep.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
From our view it is not a good thing at all and you should add all those aborted fetus to your list. The point of the thread is to ponder the possibility that maybe we do not have all the story. That maybe we are spirits too and not just simple flesh and that some force besides just us being unknowingly evil is helping this suffering along for the benefit of us on the other side. Honestly i hope that this is the case cause our division runs deep.

This reads as: We need to try to make an excuse for all the suffering in the world so we can justify our beliefs...

a reply to: ketsuko
Just to explain again on babies with AIDS.
I agree entirely that anyone who knowingly and deliberately infects another person (especially a baby) with AIDS is a criminal.
I'm not talking about people sneaking about injecting babies with AIDS (I don't know any such cases).

However, I'd never judge a mother who passes the virus on to her baby through natural processes: HIV can be passed through the placenta to the unborn child, it can also be passed on during delivery and through breastfeeding.
In low to middle income countries two out of three women don't know their HIV status when they become pregnant, yet every year 1.5 million HIV-positive women become pregnant (and fertility is very important to women in many of these countries).
www.avert.org...
Many only discover they are HIV-positive either when they develop symptoms of AIDS (which can take ten years for adults), or when being pregnant brings them into contact with a clinic.

In South Africa the first wave of the epidemic was met with moralising, stigma, silence and disbelief.
Women who tested positive could be thrown out on the street, assaulted, or even murdered (as famously happened to Gugu Dlamini when she announced on radio that she was HIV-positive).
Stigma, shame and fear meant that many people refused to test, and all kinds of snake-oil salesmen claimed to offer alternative cures.
The Catholic church first preached that couples shouldn't use condoms (although not all their clergy agreed), even if one marriage partner was infected.

Although women can also be unfaithful, or become pregnant very young and outside relationships, an added tragedy was that many of them were unknowingly infected by their male partners.

As Denise M. Ackermann writes in "Tamar's Cry: Re-reading an ancient text in the Midst of an HIV and AIDS Pandemic":

This is the virus that is responsible for the shocking fact that in many countries in Africa the condition that carries the highest risk of HIV infection is that of being a married woman.

In: Grant Me Justice: HIV/AIDS and Gender Readings of the Bible. (Edited by Musa W. Dube and Musimbi R.A. Kanyoro. Cluster Publications: 2004, page 36.)

Many churches have since changed their attitudes and now offer support, and US conservatives like Franklin Graham and George W. Bush have done laudable work in providing medicines to some African countries that prevent mother-to-child transmission (controversially with strings attached, but that's a whole different debate).
I suppose it becomes harder to maintain stigma in country with 6 million infected people, like South Africa.
Regionally most of a church's congregation could be HIV-positive.
Nowadays there is treatment to prevent mother-to-child transmission, and couples who want children but the husband is infected can also have a procedure done called "sperm-washing".

It's sad to see though that in some countries the stigma is still so strong that only half the women return to clinics for treatment after their initial diagnosis.
Of course, if people still want to moralize the virus as something people choose to get and pass on to their children then that's their choice (ultimately that really reflects on them and their ideology), but at least I've tried to explain what I was referring to.

I find the narratives of such women absolutely heart-breaking, especially knowing how fond many people are of babies and how much they desire them.
During the first decade of the South African pandemic there were no HIV medications in the state hospitals, and all that demoralized doctors and nurses could do with the flood of babies that wouldn't thrive was to send them home to die.
The human tragedy is unimaginable.
Sure, personal responsibility is important when it comes to an acquired virus, but effective care of the self also requires the correct information, the correct understanding of risk, and empowering women to negotiate safe sex.

originally posted by: halfoldman
a reply to: ketsuko

Outside of needle sharing and blood donations, how do women get AIDS?

OK, maybe all of the women were raped. No way could they ever get AIDS from casual sexual encounters. (note the sarcasm).

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: deadeyedick

From our view it is not a good thing at all and you should add all those aborted fetus to your list. The point of the thread is to ponder the possibility that maybe we do not have all the story. That maybe we are spirits too and not just simple flesh and that some force besides just us being unknowingly evil is helping this suffering along for the benefit of us on the other side. Honestly i hope that this is the case cause our division runs deep.

This reads as: We need to try to make an excuse for all the suffering in the world so we can justify our beliefs...

That is just one perspective on the post. I dare you to find another.

a reply to: deadeyedick

That maybe we are spirits too and not just simple flesh and that some force besides just us being unknowingly evil is helping this suffering along for the benefit of us on the other side.

The "other side", as in another universe?
Holding the universe that we know actually exists as a throw-away, in favor of a hypothetical universe with no evidence of its existence, is marginalizing those who are not so well off as we are, and minimalizing our own responsibility towards them.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Do you find some anger in the thought of suffering in the name of christ.

I don't feel the need to do so.

We are told to carry our own cross. Do you find that to be troublesome?

I find it to mean that we are all born of spirit AND flesh - and just like Jesus in that regard. That is what he meant. Realize that you - yes, YOU - are a part of the Divine - just as he was.

can cause many to turn to their fellow man to try and ease the process.

This has been a major effort in my life.

To me it seems that our existance does not happen without causing pain to someone or something and that could be the root of our sin. If you disagre with that statement please explain why.

I disagree. We are not 'sinners.' We are unique individuals, each of which represent a part of The Source.

Some seem to embrace suffering and some try to end it through early deaths which some others view as murder and others as release. Do you feel as thought their is a balance and that Jesus would be ok with that balance favoring life?

I don't understand this question at all.

Please explain how you view his teachings on living in the spirit yet still suffering.

His teachings: He was speaking about realizing that all suffering passes, and that in the big picture we are all fine, and things are the way they are supposed to be.

Can you name a more common and powerful emotion?

Love and peace of mind.

So do you believe that maybe suffering has spiritual effects that are unknown to us or is it just obsticles for us to overcome through knowledge?

Obstacles, but part of the human experience....and the spiritual effect is to reach a level where we can reunite with the divine, be compassionate to one another, and embrace life as a temporary but profound experience.

How do you, OP, define "Suffering"?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
How do you, OP, define "Suffering"?

That's the same question I could not figure out.

As per the OP, I just found out today that I have sleep apnea. So until I am treated for it I can do one of two things, I can fret and worry that I might stop breathing in my sleep and die, or I can simply be aware of the problem, get more rest and believe that I am going to live longer and simply wait for the CPAP.

If I fret and worry, then my stress level goes higher and causes me more problems. Then I might actually die. But if I don't fret and worry, lower my stress and just wait a little longer, then I will be treated for the problem.

My choice of how I will let this affect me. But does it mean I am suffering because of it? Maybe it would if I had a high demanding job.

I have MS, but do I suffer from it? I don't think I am, but that depends on what considers suffering to be. Would I like more money to be able to buy pizza any time I want? Sure I would, but pizza is not good for me. I just don't understand the concept of no money equating to suffering. But then again, I am fortunate to live in the United States and have an electric wheelchair when people in India desperately need one.

Their level of suffering is unimaginable, when considering the criteria of what suffering is to the average American. I am not starving to death, so I appreciate that and donate to food banks and other organizations. Yesterday I just dropped some money into the Habitat For Humanity collection box, because I don't want to see homeless children. I am not suffering, but other people would feel they would be if they were in my position.

Things that I have seen people suffering over might not seem important to others...I have seen people suffer over the loss of affection from their children. I have seen people suffer over the loss of loved ones to death. I have seen starving children, I was one. I have seen people suffering from being bullied. I have seen this, but it was mental. That is just as devastating as physical suffering.

The OP needs to define suffering, as in mental or physical. I have seen people suffering from physical problems also. But some of those people will tell you they aren't suffering. But starving children and children orphaned in institutions are the worst. I don't like to see it, but I have to before I can help.

I would say that suffering would be anything that moonshine makes go away.

Can somebody tell me something?..Whatever happened to the user "wildtimes" she always had interesting perspectives..would of liked to see her chime in on this one.